Rank Question

[BrandonLucas]

Ok, I have a real quick question about my rank...

In my dojang, my instructor started using the "recomended ranks" several years ago...now, I realize that this is a McDojo tactic, but this is certainly not a McDojo school. I do think my instructor started doing this to gain some extra money, but he doesn't charge for other things at all, really.

He provides all the equipment for sparring, and his testing fees are only $15 for underbelts, and $75 for blackbelts.

My question is that I'm a recomended 2nd degree at our dojang. I have just started back after 5 years, and I started back on Hwa-Rang. The form I left off on was actually Kwang-Gae.

I'm not sure about being a recomended 2nd degree...I've never heard of recomended degrees before.

So my question is, what rank am I supposed to be?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not a big fan or recommended ranks after colored belts, and the recommended/decided is actually an ATA specific structure, rather than just a McDojang tactic, though some schools outside the ATA, your's being one, apparently, have adopted it.

With kyu ranks, I think that it makes some degree of sense; no different in my mind than use of intermediate stripe belts (we have those) or tape stripes.

But with dan ranks, where you wait a year or years between ranks, I think that it is a bit silly. Now, if the cost of a straight second degree is divided between the recommended and decided tests, and if the decided rank is not a substantial additional amount of time between the decided, i.e. within three to six months of eachother, then I don't see a big problem.

In the end, it is the quality of the training that is most important. The rest is just trappings.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Well if you believe in your instruvtor and have faith in his teaching why worry about things that really has no measurement of one training. A belt is just that a belt, the training is all we ever have in the end.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Not a big fan or recommended ranks after colored belts, and the recommended/decided is actually an ATA specific structure, rather than just a McDojang tactic, though some schools outside the ATA, your's being one, apparently, have adopted it.

With kyu ranks, I think that it makes some degree of sense; no different in my mind than use of intermediate stripe belts (we have those) or tape stripes.

But with dan ranks, where you wait a year or years between ranks, I think that it is a bit silly. Now, if the cost of a straight second degree is divided between the recommended and decided tests, and if the decided rank is not a substantial additional amount of time between the decided, i.e. within three to six months of eachother, then I don't see a big problem.

In the end, it is the quality of the training that is most important. The rest is just trappings.

Daniel

I agree with you 100%....especially about the quality of the training being the most important. Rest assured, our training is high quality.

I'm still trying to figure out what rank I truly am, though. Since I'm doing the Kang-Gae Chang Hon form, I would assume that I should be considered a full 2nd degree, but you know what they say about assuming....

 

[BrandonLucas]

Well if you believe in your instruvtor and have faith in his teaching why worry about things that really has no measurement of one training. A belt is just that a belt, the training is all we ever have in the end.

I agree with your statement as well. I'm not really hung up on the rank thing, per se, but I earned the recomended 2nd degree in 2000, so I've gone this long without knowing.

I want to know more for purposes of things like being on this forum...I'm listed as a 1st dan in TKD on here, but I'm not sure if that's entirely correct.

But I do agree that a belt is just a belt. And besides, in the condition I'm in right now, I may as well be a white belt anyway.

 

[terryl965]

If you was recomended back in 2000, I would be pretty sure you are a second.

 

[MBuzzy]

What exactly is a recommended rank?

 

[BrandonLucas]

It's supposed to be a rank in between ranks...kind of like a half-rank...

For instance, we have a recomended blackbelt, which is in between red belt and 1st dan. It's more like a probationary period for ranking.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What exactly is a recommended rank?

It's like a half a rank. The ATA has about ten to twelve colored belts, but in additions to those, each belt has a 'recommended' and 'decided', each of which has its own test and accompanying fee, which makes over twenty testings before black and lots, and lots of fees. The money from this double testing for each rank is really the only reason for such a practice.

I don't know if at Brandon's dojang if the recommended test is charged for or not, as I believe he is ITF, not ATA.

Perhaps this is what Brandon's school is doing:

Some schools will have a pretest a month before the actual belt test to determine if the student should test or if they need more work. If the student passes the pretest, then they're 'recommended' to take the full belt test. Once they pass the formal test, then the recommended rank would then be 'decided.' Such pretests don't involve a fee that I have ever seen and generally don't use the terminology 'recommended' or 'decided.'

If that is indeed what Brandon's school is doing, then I'd venture that he is already considered a yidan or probably should test for the 'decided' yidan rank.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

Our dojang is odd in a few ways, lol....

Basically, that's what our instructor does. It's very similar to a half rank, and he didn't start the recomended ranks until I had reached red belt. At that point, when I tested, I received a black belt with a red strip through the center of it, which was called the recomended black belt. I stayed this rank for a full year, at which point I tested to be a 1st degree.

I remained 1st degree for 2 and a half years, then tested and became recomended 2nd degree.

He doesn't do this for the under belts, just when you hit blackbelt.

I've never really approached him about this before, because I really don't want to seem like I'm questioning my rank, or his method of ranking students.

What's odd to me is that he has no other charges, except for his monthly fee for attending class. All you're required to pay for is classes and testings...so in that sense, he's definitely not running a McDojo.

I can see a point of having an initial recomended black belt rank, set as a probationary rank to make sure you're ready to hold a 1st dan...but after that, I'm not so sure.

 

[Laurentkd]

Why not just ask your instructor?

Here is how it works at my school. About 6 months before our annual black belt test date (which is for anyone testing for 1st degree or higher) we start a special training class that is basically to help that group work together to get ready for the test. They quiz eachother, ask questions, sort of bond as a testing group, etc. If you are invited to this class you are then "recommended". So if you are a recommended 2nd that means that you will be testing for 2nd degree this year (basically recommended for 2nd). It really isn't anything official, just suddenly that is what my instructor starts introducing you as at testings, tournaments, etc.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Why not just ask your instructor?

Here is how it works at my school. About 6 months before our annual black belt test date (which is for anyone testing for 1st degree or higher) we start a special training class that is basically to help that group work together to get ready for the test. They quiz eachother, ask questions, sort of bond as a testing group, etc. If you are invited to this class you are then "recommended". So if you are a recommended 2nd that means that you will be testing for 2nd degree this year (basically recommended for 2nd). It really isn't anything official, just suddenly that is what my instructor starts introducing you as at testings, tournaments, etc.

I would like to ask my instructor, but I'm just not sure how to go about it, without seeming like I'm being disrespectful or like I'm questioning his judgement.

After you hit blackbelt in our dojang, you wait for a certain period of time before you're advised to test...from recomended black belt to 1st degree, it was a year, then from 1st to recomended, it was 2 years, from recomended 2nd to full 2nd it's 3 years...etc.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I would like to ask my instructor, but I'm just not sure how to go about it, without seeming like I'm being disrespectful or like I'm questioning his judgement.

After you hit blackbelt in our dojang, you wait for a certain period of time before you're advised to test...from recomended black belt to 1st degree, it was a year, then from 1st to recomended, it was 2 years, from recomended 2nd to full 2nd it's 3 years...etc.

If you have been recommended second since 2000, then you're six years overdue. In fact, that time line, in theory, you should have tested for recommended third by now.

Though I will say that I've never heard of a four year time in grade from second to third. Most rank progressions don't have recommended dan ranks and traditionally, the grade you are in is the number of years to the next; one from first to second, two from second to third, three from third to fourth, and so on.

Not saying that your school's time line bad, but it is very unusual.

As to how to ask, I'd just talk to your master, tell him that you haven't tested in eight years and when he might think you're ready to test. I see no reason why that would be any sort of problem.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Brandon there is only one way to ask and that is to be honest about your question, if he is any true Master of Martial Arts he will see it as a very polite question from a very loyal student.

 

[BrandonLucas]

If you have been recommended second since 2000, then you're six years overdue. In fact, that time line, in theory, you should have tested for recommended third by now.

Though I will say that I've never heard of a four year time in grade from second to third. Most rank progressions don't have recommended dan ranks and traditionally, the grade you are in is the number of years to the next; one from first to second, two from second to third, three from third to fourth, and so on.

Not saying that your school's time line bad, but it is very unusual.

As to how to ask, I'd just talk to your master, tell him that you haven't tested in eight years and when he might think you're ready to test. I see no reason why that would be any sort of problem.

Daniel

I would agree, except that I'm definitelty not ready at this point to be promoted...I had just made recomended 2nd degree when I quit attending in 2000, and I started back in 2003 for about 6 months, then had to quit because I was getting married and had to drop it financially.

Now, I'm finally at a point where I can start training again, so I guess I could still consider myself a fresh 2nd degree at this point.

As far as asking my instructor, I think you and Terry are both correct about just being straightforward and asking him. If I ask in a respectful manner, I'm pretty sure he'll explain everything to me. I guess it's just weird to me because I never really questioned anything in his classes directly before, so I didn't want to seem disrespectful. But, now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind being asked that question if I owned the dojang, as long as it was asked respectfully.

 

[StuartA]

Never used them myself but have heard of them and AFAIA as someone put, they are in between ranks.. therefore, on face value, if your recommended 2nd dan.. then you are still a 1st dan with a view to testing for 2nd dan. That is, if following the time period of being "recommended" there is an actual test on the end... if not, then it could go either way I guess.

Brandan, I notice you say you are practicing Kwang-Gae.. this is a 1st dan pattern, that is tested for 2nd dan (along with the other 2).. which would suggest you are 1st dan still.

However, I could be totally wrong and as others have said, best to ask your instructor.

Let us know the outcome,

Stuart

 

[Laurentkd]

I think your concern is that you believe you are a recommended 2nd, but you are learning the form that decided 2nds learn, right?

So.... if it was me when my instructor started to show me more of the form or I would say something like "sir, I am only a rec 2nd so I am still working on x form (whatever one is the rec 2nd form)". Or, "sir I am a recom 2nd so I don't know that form (even if you already know the first part). Or when he asks to see your form just do the form for rec 2nd. Then he can tell you if it is otherwise without you looking like you are assuming you are already a decided 2nd. It is all about tone of voice and body language, but would something like that work for you?

 

[BrandonLucas]

I think your concern is that you believe you are a recommended 2nd, but you are learning the form that decided 2nds learn, right?

So.... if it was me when my instructor started to show me more of the form or I would say something like "sir, I am only a rec 2nd so I am still working on x form (whatever one is the rec 2nd form)". Or, "sir I am a recom 2nd so I don't know that form (even if you already know the first part). Or when he asks to see your form just do the form for rec 2nd. Then he can tell you if it is otherwise without you looking like you are assuming you are already a decided 2nd. It is all about tone of voice and body language, but would something like that work for you?

Well, I'm going to class tonight, so I think I'm just going to ask him about it straight out. Something like:

"I understand that I'm a recomended 2nd degree, and I understand that I'm nowhere near ready to test for another rank, but I was just wondering how my rank would be transferred to another ITF school if I were to help teach in the future with someone else as well as at this dojang."

I'm not sure if that would be the best phrasing, but I think I'll be able to feel it out once I'm there.

Thanks to both you and StuartA for the insight...I've been told I'm doing a 2nd dan form from several others, and I've also been told that this is a 1st dan form, so that's where the mix up comes in for me...either way, I'm fine with whatever rank it equals out to be.

I still know that I have alot of work to do before I really need to even start to wonder what rank I should be....just curious, that's all.

But thanks to everyone for the help, and I'll post an update when I find out.

 

[StuartA]

Brandan,

I wouldnt mention anything about other schools, just ask straight out to explain your current grade/level to you.

Also: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/SECTION2-Patterns.html

Good luck,

Stuart

 

[BrandonLucas]

Never used them myself but have heard of them and AFAIA as someone put, they are in between ranks.. therefore, on face value, if your recommended 2nd dan.. then you are still a 1st dan with a view to testing for 2nd dan. That is, if following the time period of being "recommended" there is an actual test on the end... if not, then it could go either way I guess.

Brandan, I notice you say you are practicing Kwang-Gae.. this is a 1st dan pattern, that is tested for 2nd dan (along with the other 2).. which would suggest you are 1st dan still.

However, I could be totally wrong and as others have said, best to ask your instructor.

Let us know the outcome,

Stuart

Just out of curiosity, would you mind listing the correct patterns as they correspond with the correct rank, as far as what you're familier with?

For our dojang, this is how I went through the ranks, up to the point where I am now:

White Belt - Chon-Ji
Yellow Belt - Dan-Gun
Green Belt - Do-San
Blue Belt - Won-Hyo
Yul-Gok
Red Belt - Joon-Gun
Recommended Black Belt - Toi-Gye
1st Dan - Hwa-Rang
Choong-Moo
Recommended 2nd Dan- Kwang-Gae