Ramblings on Symposium DVD reviews

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Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Your comparing the packaging and the window dressing, Rich. Deep down at the core the same fundamental concepts are the same. It is undeniable. Go train with GM Taboada or any other Balintawak guy and see for yourself. The package may look a little different, but the candy inside is the same.

Tim K, is the Gran Prix and the Lumina and the Imapla and the Century and Regal all the same car? Nope, they all have different packageing and marketing, and requirements by the end item customer. Yet, they all are built on the same frame/platform use similar powertrains, (* Yet they are fine tunded to the requirement of the name plate *). So, if a person is looking for a sporty car they get the Gran Prix, is they want comfort they go for the Century.

Yes, I would like to train with GM Bobby Toboada (* And NO THIS IS NOT A CHALLENGE SO DO NOT ASSUME SO! *), or one of his instructors. I assume everyone has something to offer and teach me. Yet, from what I have seen on the tapes, I would have to say that I have seen enough differences, to let me make my first comment, which was qualified, just like this one. I have not trained with Gm Bobby Toboada. From what I have seen in his tapes and from his people I have the chance to watch.

I am not discounting the training, I am only stating like I did in the previous post that I think is incorrect of the Modern Arnis Communnity to claim that this was a Modern Arnis event only. There were other arts there. These arts were represented by people that have years of training and teaching. I enjoyed the training with Sifu Peter Vargas. He was nice and friendly. This was never an attack on him or Grand Master Bobby Toboada. I was only trying to state that I think this event had more than Modern Arnis.



Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Well Rich, with the state of flux that the Professor kept the system in as he developed it, "tapi-tapi" was always there in concept. He called it a number of things before settling on the term "tapi-tapi". I never said that the Professor hadn't taught it prior to 1992. He codified it and started really pushing it then, particularly after so many people started exploring Balintawak.

I agree with you that GM Taboada's arrival on the scene probably influenced the Professor to develop and release tapi-tapi a little quicker than he might/might not have have. It was a more matter of marketing than anything else.

Tim K,

I though Tapi-Tapi and hte term and the right on right was around in 1988 maybe 1989, still three years before 1992.

Now, Like I Said before, could GM Bobby Taboada have influenced his decision to push it harder at the camps? This could be true, for I was not in his mind. Yet, again I state that it had been taught at the Michigan camp and before that at seminars in my home town. So, yes influence could have and probably did occur. Just like, I might influenece you or you might enfluence me, yet I think the final decision was GM Remy Presas' and the term and basic drill was around prior to GM Bobby Toboada's major puch here in North America.

So, does this discount GM Bobby Toboada? NO! Does this discount the Toboada Balintawak System? NO! Could the drills be similar since the linage for both them went back to Anciong Bacon, with each of them having other influences as well?

I am confused Tim K. It could be because it is late and I need sleep. On one hand you tell me they are the same meaning the different family trees of Balintawak and yet you claim that GM Bobby Taboada had a major influence on the Tapi-Tapi Drill. Would not Modern Arnis also be a rose by another name from the Balintawak Family then by your arguing?

Can you clarify? Sorry.




Originally posted by DoxN4cer
You mean Maranga's Tres Personas, right? BTW, you forgot Dr. Go, Delfin Lopez, Henry Jamie and the Atillos to name a few.

Yes Tim you are 100% Correct, I mis-quoted the name in an attempt to reply to you before I left for teaching at a camp. I should not have posted unless I had all my information correct, as I could either remember or verify. As to the rest of the list I would not add in the Atillos. The last I heard, there lineage did not come through Anciong Bacon, it came strait from the Savaadres. As I was not there, and most of the people I know of that might know are either dead or I cannot find them, I will take their comments with a grain of salt. The name Balintawak was not even around as the name of what people were doing in Cebu City until after World War II, and with the death of the Savaadres in the war, it would be hard to have learned Balintawak. Yet is it possible that their family had learned the same techniques as GM Anciong Bacon? Most assuredly.

BTW Tim, did you know that Delfin Lopez was an extended Uncle to Manong Ted Buot? Just to add some information to your knowledge bank. NO disrespect meant to you or anyone, only trying to share another piece of information.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Anyway, the people you mentioned took an "informal" system and formalized it. Bacon had a fierce reputation as a fighter, but as an instructor he didn't have a solid curriculm for his predcessors to follow. They made it fit their own needs in terms of instructional framework. That made it easier to learn as well as easier to teach. They kept the core of what makes the system what it is and codified it the better facilitate it's instruction when the founder could no longer teach. Does that make it their interpretation of the art less viable? No. It does not.

By Taking an informal system and formalizing, how can it be the same? As to the No Solid Curriculm, Manong (GM) Ted Buot does just fine with it. Yes, you have to learn it the old way, one on one and you must feel as well as see the technique and timing.

As to keeping the core, this implies the left something behind. How can it be the same?

As to their art being less Viable. Once again, I have never said these other systems/arts were to be discounted or not taken deriously, or for people to not train in them. All, I am trying to state is that they are different, hence the different names. They are different because as you pointed out they modfied and changed things, yet kept the core. Core implies a central part, not the whole piece. Could their changes be for the better? Obviously, yes, or people would not think so and would not think studying in theses and other arts worthwhile, so once again, I am not looking to create a war between myself and anyone or this art and that art. Which goes back to my first comments, Taboada Balintawak and Pancipanci Eskrima are not Modern Arnis in its' whole by any means. These arts should have been given equal billing, by calling the event Filipnio Martial Arts Symposium, versus the one and only first Modern Arnis Symposium. These other people should be given their credit as well.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Step out of the box and see for yourself, Rich. Make the comparison once you've seen more of what's out there. You'll see what I mean.

Tim Kashino

I would love to make the comparison. And I plan on making the comparison, when an event lines up with location and timing for me at work. I have played with some guys who have trained in Go Lineage, no this was not serious play nor was it long. I saw the similarities, and the differences. Could this be the errors of these two students, (* Myself and the other *)? Yes it could. I have an open mind.
 
Tim K,

Two Items.

First, I will Call Panung Guro Tom Bolden This afternoon after 5:00 PM. Monday the 20th of October. I apologize as I was out of town and away from a computer.

Second, Why does, everyone of my posts get turned into an attack on Bobby Taboada by you? I posted my feelings above, that I did not wish for the other systems to not be given their due. Do you have issues with me? Are you trying to discredit me? This is fine. For is I open my mouth, and say something, either I have to accpet the ramifications or apologize. If those ramifications are someone getting upset and thinking I am challenging them, then I will live by it. Just so long as those are my words, and not yours. If you wish to see a fight between me and someone, then please let me know who it is, and why? If you do not then why is everyone of your posts lined with a leading comment or two that implies I have some how insulted someone or an art?

Believe me if I mean to insult someone on purpose I will.

So, Tim, are we going to be honest with each other here? or are you going to continue your game? You can have people call me. I will either learn new information, or explain what I meant. You can try to get people to not like me and thereby have any one I dislike gain credit with my loss of face. You see Tim, even though you are in the Navy, and work the piers (* Here I am assuming SP, and for that I apologize. *), Jerome introduced you as his enforcer. Previously, I had not assumed anything, until after reading your last few posts here and elsewhere. Now I am wondering, not assuming, so I am asking, why the hostility and the blatent attempts to draw me into in conflict with a thrid party. Some people would call this trollish behavior and ask for you to leave. Me personally, I want to know what is up?

I apologize, if I have insulted you, for you see I have not tried too. I do not understand why everything I post turns into a conflict, and I am trying to defend myself, from your insinuations that I am insulting over half the know FMA community. So, Once again, yes I have problems with two people, not their students, not their organizations, not their arts, just two individuals. The problem stems from the way I was personally treated by them, not by their technique or knowledge and/or thing else. Tim K., why? What did I do? (* Other than post about Jerome? *)
 
Originally posted by DoxN4cer
OK RIch, maybe it's time for athread split.

I will work on this Monday Evening
:asian:
 
Yes, I got a set of the DVDs. The filming was fine and th presentations caught the essence of what was presented at the Symposium. An interesting point to bring up here is the differences in teaching methods of the presenters. Along with the techniques, the methods of each individual was one of the things I liked most about the DVD set. All in all, they are a good buy.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
 
Sorry to interrupt the battling but here's some hard data about the Symposium DVDs. Here's the line up -
Disc 1 (the time is on my own DVD player and is after the intro)
Paul Martin 0:01.00
Dieter Knuettel 0:12.42
Paul Janulis 0:27.26
Dawud Muhammed 0:32:00
Peter Vargas 0:49:55
Tim Kashino 0:59.18
Disc 2
Bram Frank 0:00.59
Tom Bolder 0:11:18
Paul Martin 0:20.47
Dieter Knuettel 0:32.43
Tim Hartman 0:48:11
Dan Anderson 0:58.15
Disc 3
Tim Kashino 0:00.55
Bram Frank 0:07.27
Peter Vargas 0:18.57
Serrada Sekrima demonstration 0:24.34
Dawud Muhammed 1:02.07
Disc 4
Tim Kashino 0:00.58
Dieter Knuettel 0:16.03
Peter Vargas 0:29.12
Tim Hartman 0:38.11
John Ralston 0:54.49
Disc 5
Tom Bolden 0:02.46
Dan Anderson 0:24.46
Paul Martin 0:45.23
Awards 1:04

Kaith, I have only done a couple of seminars for Jerome as I have also done a number of seminars that Tim has set up for me. As I have a personal relationship with each, please don't lump me into any real or unreal faction here (except the MA-80 Boosters Club. I'm a proud member of that fine group. Wonderful fellows, they are.:D). That's all, folks.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
 
Arnisador,
You're welcome.

Gents,
The Symposium was what it was. As a presenter and student, it went well. It was the first of its kind so there were flies in the ointment but there was ointment. Lots of different perspectives on basically the same art. It wasn't totally and strictly Modern Arnis. It wasn't totally and strictly FMA with no Modern Arnis. There were instructors who said they'd make it and then didn't. First event blues. But there was good training to be had.

A big hats of to both Dieter Knuettel who came in from Germany and to Bram Frank who commands a much higher fee than pro bono work.

Also, the non-famous did as good a job as the "infamous" (I couldn't resist that one :rofl: ).

We can all *****, piss and moan about who said what and what wasn't there but I prefer to think about what we did and who was there. The DVDs reflect the training at the camp and I still say for the price, they are a steal.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - My teaching section was the best. That's worth the price of the discs set alone! :D
PPS - It's time to lighten up guys...but it really was the best. :D
 
To discount the validity of "Taboada Balintawak" being taught at a Modern Arnis event is not only narrow minded, but also discounts the validity of all Balintawak being taught by anyone within the context of any Modern Arnis framework.

I don't think that Rich was discounting anything, but he is calling it like it is. If I host a seminar and pose it as a "Modern Arnis Gathering" with 10 instructors on the bill, but a good % of them are not doing Modern Arnis, but Balintawak, Ponce Ponce Eskrima, Dillman Karate, or what have you, then it is not strictly a "Modern Arnis Gathering." No matter what way you cut it, Toboada's Bilintawak is not Modern Arnis. Hell...it isn't even Bacon's Balintawak speaking in the strict sense, or he wouldn't have added his name to it.

Now, this doesn't discount the "validity" these other arts, and the fact that a large % of what was being taught wasn't strictly Remy Presas wouldn't make it a bad event per say, but it DOES make this more of a Filipino Arts Gathering rather then a "Modern Arnis" Gathering.

That being said...the instructors who were on the bill at first were strictly Modern Arnis from different era's. When they backed out, we needed fillers, and many of the fillers didn't teach strictly Remy Presas Arnis, turning the event into something different then what it was created for.

This is just what happened, regardless of who to blame. But since it happened, lets call it what it was...a Filipino Arts gathering.
 
Hi all:

I've refrained from posting here as (sadly) I don't yet own a set of the DVDs, although that is something I will correct within the month :)$). However, I was at the Symposium and can testify to the quality of the instruction that was there.

In regards to not being all Modern Arnis, I challenge anyone out there to get every Modern Arnis player to agree what consists of official "Modern Arnis". It's an eclectic art folks. The Professor was constantly picking up new techniques and playing with old ones to make them better.

He changed the way he did things in the time that I knew him, even down to the way he did his abecedario with 12 strikes. Sometimes strikes were forehand first in the pattern, sometimes backhand.

As for anyone who thinks that Balintawak as GM Bobby Taboada learned and teaches it wasn't an influence on the way Modern Arnis was developed, if you had seen the Professor and GM Bobby go off into a corner in North Carolina at Irwin Carmichael's school (in '92? '93?) as we trained with Rick Mitchell and we strained to see what was going on while not getting our brains knocked out by ourselves or each other, you might change your mind. I certainly see the connections now.

As a proud attendee of the Symposium, I think the people and instructors who couldn't or chose not to attend missed a real treat and a real chance to build bridges rather than burn them (which many Modern Arnis players seem to be quite apt at). In any case I feel that I got my money's worth, and I paid full price in advance.

Since it seems that not to many people have gotten the videos yet, it's not surprising that there is some silence about this topic. Hopefully that will change as people decide to spend some cash on George's fine work (myself included). However, I don't think the silence is damning by any means and if someone is interested in how the instruction was at the Symposium and wants to compare notes or chat about it, I will happily start a new thread all about it.

Salamat po,

Rich Curren
 
I posted this on an ealier thread, but no replies... What's up, did you guys get your videos and haven't watched them yet?

It's been nearly a month since the last post on the Symposium videos, and nobody but Bram has offered up a review. What's up? Are you guys still digesting what's there, or are you still waiting for your copies? I know that George always sends out a quality product. I'm curious to hear what everybody thought about the presentations.

Tim Kashino
 
Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Yes, I got a set of the DVDs. The filming was fine and th presentations caught the essence of what was presented at the Symposium. An interesting point to bring up here is the differences in teaching methods of the presenters. Along with the techniques, the methods of each individual was one of the things I liked most about the DVD set. All in all, they are a good buy.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Have you got anything specific to say about each of the presentations, Dan?

Tim
 
Well here's my two cents... I'll be going in order of appearance:

Paul Martin, one of my old training partners, disscussed and demonstrated some differences in training orientation between technical and tactical methods. He showed a couple of drills as example of tactical training. In his subsequent appearences on the DVDs he follows up on his initial line of reasoning, adding western style boxing, the bob and weave with head butting and still later the de Kadena drill with flowing into joint locks and escapes from arm bars and wrist grabs. A very creative approach to Modern Arnis.

Dieter Knuttel, opened with a full session on tapi-tapi instruction. he moved very fast and worked very hard. He was able to explain everything as he went along and he got a lot of things covered within his session. In his later appearences he slows the pace a bit, but he is very thorough in his presentations and explainations. He worked on stick to stick disarns and added some subtle touches of his own to the Professor's basic formulas.

Dawud Muhammad, opened his session with the solo stick which progressed to the single knife, and then empty hand tactics right off of the single stick. His footwok and body shifting was excellent and indicative of someone with a strong kenpo and knife fighting background. He was very composed and effective as a teacher, He clearly explained what he wanted everyone to do and why they should be doing it.

Peter Vargas, taught a very high quality version of the Taboada Style of Balintawak and American Modern Arnis. He provided his students with a quick, abbreviated but very accurate training experience with the GM Bobby Taboada's version of the Sinawali boxing drills. In his second presentation ge added what he called "entries" the previous boxing drills that included elbow strikes to the inner and outer forearm, chest and face area. His last session involved Balintawak / AMAA stick disrms. Peter provided a very effective program of instruction.

Dan Anderson, founder of MA-80, taught counters to the standard Modern arnis disarms. These counters are quite similar to Professor's, but Dan has added his own personal touches and boy do they work! In his second appearence Dan was teaching empty hand approaches to self defense in terms of countering attacks and creating takedowns and throws using the entire body to knock the opponent off-balance facilitating the "heel hook" takedowns that the Professor was always so fond of. He also showed some really good joint-lock reversals. Over-all it was a very positive and exciting program that should be seen.

Bram Frank, taught the opening sequence to his new modular instructional program that is designed to train the trainers of military and polic units. A fast paced yet simple program. Since most of what Bram teaches is oriented around the knife, he has a very different approach to Modern Arnis than the majority of instructors. He knows very well that there is not a simple linear transition from stick to knife. The knife is very unforgiving for someone's failure to keep their own body away from the path that the knife is taking. The second apparence served as a follow up to the first and it was a great opportunity for us to ask some questions and innovate on some of the material taught earlier.

Tom Bolden, began his first presentation with a primer on arnis stick blocking using a circular pattern that covers the entire body and is augemented by the checking hand.(If anybody out there was ever on the receiving end of one of Tom's checks, you'd think he had a hammer in hand... ouch). Then he added very definate movement patterns to the stick and checking hand to make the blocks-counters highly effective. A lot of people talk about movement, but Tom does it, and his students do it...very well. Tom's American Modern Arnis is a movement based system. In his second appearence, Bolden, showed us a series of movements that always kept his stick in the correct area to effective for blocking and countering. His movement schemes provided power and speed to his stick strikes, blocks, punches and kicks. He also brought the most sought after tee-shirt to the Symposium. It read "Arnis Excellence; Skill is Rank"; a maxim that Tom embraces and embodies.

John Ralston, conducted just one training session. He added pressure point striking to the art of disarming. The points were centered on the stick hand, wrist, forearm, bicep and tricep areas. These were the standard stuff that professor had taught for nearly three decades, but the addition of specific pressure points to the disarming methods really kicked it up a notch or two. It was an excellent block of instruction.

Side note: Richard Curren, another old training partner of mine, taught a session on the first night that was not captured on tape. It's a shame because what he showed on the only Friday evening session was very smooth, well coordinated and effective. He covered a knife flow drill that was really challenging and focused on body positioning and the live hand to avoid the bite of the blade.

DVD #5 contains the passing out of the certificates to the instructors. It was a very nice and rather informal presentation with very little distinction made between the instructors. This is a very good represetation of how the entire Symposium was handled. Everyone one was given equal opportunities to show their own version of how they believe that Modern Arnis could be done. It was an open event, and with the exception of Dan Anderson, Tom Bolden, Richard Curren and John Ralston, everyone had three sessions that they taught. It's hard to say that there was a favorite person or version of the art indicated at this event. The chief objective of the Symposium was met - showing the diversity that exists within Modern Arnis.

I highly recommend the material on the videos for anybody who wasn't there or who is curious about Modern Arnis and wants a broader view of the art.

Submitted respectfully,

Tim Kashino


BTW: For those of you who are speculating about my handle:

"Dox" - as in wharf or pier i.e. referring to the Navy
"N4cer" - military police.

Get the picture? Stop assuming.
 
Regarless of Dr. Barber's review and people hurt feelings, there is a good deal of material that many people may find interesting and worth their while to obtain. It seems that this thread has become a "Barber-Bashing" party. Dr. Barber's review of the symposium from another forum is one thing, an honest review of the DVDs is another. While the two subjects are "linked", one has as much to do with each other as much as apples and oranges are similar only in the fact that they are both classified as fruit.

Bloodwood, if you had a problem with Dr. Barber's review why not address it in the forum it came from? Why not just start a forum dedcated to bashing Dr. Barber rather than disrupt positve exchanges here that wouldn't be such a waste of bandwidth?

I asked for an honest review of the the videos, not for your opinion of Dr. Barber. I already know what you opinion of him is, as does everyone else that reads this forum.

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Tim,

Stop Assuming, I am Assuming anything about you. ;)

My Apologies everyone :soapbox:

Ths instruction that I saw at the camp was fine and I did learn. I amsure the Video's and DVD's are just fine in quality and in production...

...So, Tim K. no disrespect to you, yet I paid to see one thing and was given something else wihtout being told. And yes, even three months later I am still upset by this. The lack respect by Jerome and his childish games were something that I will not let be forgotten...

...I apologize to George the DVD producer, and those reading this thread. My Comments are not negative about his production work or event the work he taped. Buy the tapes or DVD's, you can learn some good stuff. George is an excellant guy... I am serious, buy his products and see for yourself some good information being taught.

Off my :soapbox: and back to thread

I don't know, are you? Rich, that statement is for everyone who may feel that there something afoot. I just put that out there to clear up any misconceptions as to my user ID. I was contacted privately on a few occasions as to the meaning underneath it.

No offense taken on my part, Rich. I'm still a little annoyed as well, but I prefer to focus on the positive aspects of the event rather than stew over the things that transpired behind te scenes. I don't fault you for speaking your mind, but it's over.

I recomend the DVDs to anyone who wants to see the "art within tour art" fully illustrated on video. It can be said that it was not stricly a MA event. However, regardless of each individual's approach and backround, every instructor (each of which was personally certified by the Professor himself) brought his own flavor to the event. Remember fellas, MA is an eclectic system. To argue the "purity" of the material is irrelavent in light of that fact.

Tim Kashino
 
Originally posted by Rich Parsons

A new forum for the defamation of a single person is not desired. I post or two of my opinion of how someone handled themselves is fine, in my opinion...

Tim, I apologize if my opinion of Jerome Barber upsets you. The only person I feel the same about is Jeff Delaney. Jeff told me I had no rank and had to pay to join his website and to pay him money (* Lots of Money *) to be retested...

... So, when people try to put a positive light on either of these two people in a personal realm I give my experiences. Now as I have never trained with either, only watched them work singles with other people I will and cannot comment on their technique.

... Trying to get along with most people is also a goal. So, Tim can we both try?

... I appriciate you not taking any offense, and I ask you to keep me honest as well.

The DVD's/Tapes should be bought. People should see what the instructors offered at this event. If you are looking for someone to do your own DVD's or Tapes then contact George. He also has done Bram Frank's and I have enjoyed them.

Hmmm, where to start... Let me beigin by saying that I am not an appologist for Dr. Barber. Your opinion, or anyone else's, of Dr. Barber does not up set me. All the the chatter on the forum about him isn't necessary. It seems as though once one person metions his name, everybody jumps on the wagon and commences to name-bashing. Not exactly a classy thing to do, considering that he has been suspended from this forum... really a class act.

I don't take offense at what you have to say, Rich. Contrary to public opinion, I'm a pretty easy going guy. I just don't understand why people waste their bandwidth and time focusing so much negative energy on a man who is basically out of the equation.

Red Blade saw fit to drag Dr. Barber's review over to MT from another forum, and began the Barber bashing. Dr. Barber was not the focus of this thread. A constructive review of the symposium videos was the focus. I'll bet if I started a thread with nothing else but his name in the text block I would find the same general attitude there would be a number of people seizing the opportunity to sat something negative just because I mentioned his name. Really classy.

What do you mean "can we both try?" Am I antagonizing anyone? Am I not playing nice? I feel that I'm being rather objective about it all, and everyone else is taking shots at someone who is no longer in the picture.

Like I said, I try to focus on the positive occurances from that event. Your choice to focus on the negative is unfortunate and unecessary, but is nice to see that you recommend the videos to the general public as well.

Tim Kashino
 
Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Those who were there seem to agree that the floor was a good place, and that the video is good. I look forward to borrowing a set and seeing for myself.

Now...do we continue to rehash the BS, or can we focus on some more video reviews of this event?


Yes, Bob. Let's do that. I've allowed myself to be distracted from the original post long enough. It was some of your "good ol' boys" that pushed the conversation off course in the first place. Thanks for pushing it back on track.

The heart of the matter is that there was some very excellent instruction at the Symposium, and it is a fortunate thing that it was all caught on video.

Tim Kashino
 
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