- Jul 9, 2008
- Reaction score
- Covington, WA
We're back to calling people "kid?"@Tony Dismukes , thanks for the review... it matches my thoughts as well.
One of my favourite shows of all time is The West Wing... in the penultimate season, the show covered the primary season, with various people vying for nomination of their party for President. One of the main contenders, and presumptive nominee, is the then-Vice President, Bob Russell. He had a favourite way of starting his speeches, with a joke about the Vice Presidential Seal, saying that his favourite thing about the VP Seal was that "if you turn your head... and squint just so... and look really carefully... it almost looks like... President of the United States..." (cheap applause and polite laughter). In an aside, his campaign manager, Will Bailey, is discussing with a senior aide, Donnatella Moss. She asks him if he's ever "squinted, looked from the side..", and he responds that "I'm ashamed to admit it, but, yes." "And, does it?" she asked... "No."
Sean, Kacem, and others, are squinting and looking from the side, hoping to see what they want, rather than opening their eyes and looking directly as what it is... speaking of...
For one thing, we should teach you how to quote... click on the "add quote" button... makes it much easier to do this.
Right, let's get to it. I've asked for numerous examples... you want just one? Okay... how would you define the body structural difference between, let's say, Koto Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu? We'll keep it simple... describe the difference between their two Seigan no Kamae... how it's adopted, how the body is structured (hip orientation, weight distribution)... but, more importantly, what does that imply for the school?
This is leaving off concepts such as the reiho, ri-ai, mindset, and so on that would really identify ryu-ha transmission... if we're lucky, we'll get there... or, really, we'll get to conversing about it, as they don't really feature beyond some minor (largely superficial, really... we'll get to that) physical variations from one "ryu" to the next.
Please. If it takes a lifetime to study and learn them, how did Hatsumi do it in less than 15 years of (at times) intermittent weekends? Unless you're agreeing that that would be impossible, so he didn't actually do anything of the kind? Realistically, though, for most koryu, anywhere from 10-20 years would be what I would consider "standard" for achieving Menkyo Kaiden (or it's equivalent). Today, that often gets stretched out to perhaps 25-30 years, but I'd also attribute that to the modern training approaches compared to back in the day (even back in the 70's and 80's, really)... but it's not historically accurate to say anything like that.
Now, I'm not saying that these arts aren't lifetime studies... they certainly can be, and are for many people. But that's not the same as how long it takes to learn them in the first place. As for your timeline, frankly, the terms you're describing are quite vague and meaningless here... your idea of "learning distancing" might be very different to mine... after all, learning it can be done quickly... developing a sense and understanding is another matter entirely... of course, it's also a bit telling that you focus on these as "the basics of general combat movement", as that's exactly what the Bujinkan is, and exactly why it's not a study of the ryu-ha... which is, again, not a criticism, it's a description of it's design... which is exactly the way Hatsumi wants it, and is the best approach for the skills he wants to impart.
Well, not really, if it's not taught (and therefore not an option) for them in the first place... and, again, I'm only saying the Bujinkan's approach to the material is "wrong" from the perspective of the ryu... it's perfectly correct when looked at with the ideal of using the material to explore Budo Taijutsu... which is the reality. Look, you can get as deep as you want into the kata the way the Bujinkan do them, but the homogenisation to a Budo Taijutsu approach (body structure, attacking methods, incredibly similar kamae, blocking and receiving methods, methods of applying locks and throws, and so on) will remove them from the context of the ryu itself. Believe me, I've done that for two and a half decades (although, to be frank, I've understood that there was this major separation between the Bujinkan's approach and the actual ryu-ha for the last 15 years at least... I'm just now really in a position to start putting together what I feel is a more accurate representation... not saying it's "right", as I think the possibility of saying that is well past, just that it's something I feel is closer). One more thing... this isn't restricted to the Bujinkan either... the Jinenkan does the same thing, as does the Genbukan... there is a basic, underlying approach each group uses, and that is how they filter and express the waza of the various schools... at the end, I'll show a bit of what I'm talking about.
Not passive-aggressive, genuinely asking. Your English is good, but you seem to not follow what is being said a number of times... misrepresenting Dunc's statements and intent, missing Tony's background, stating you "can look for" something regarding myself, despite it being literally two sentences prior in your own post... so I was curious, as that might have explained it. If not... then maybe read a bit closer?
And, yes, my money is on "never". To begin with, you have the three "hidden" schools, one which was not given in any way other than on paper (with no techniques), one being a set of principles, and one mysteriously appearing a couple of years after Takamatsu's death... then you have the time-frame, and the size of some of these schools... then you have the lack of any indication of ryu-ha methodologies, the disdain shown towards the traits and common practices of koryu, as well as Hatsumi's own lack of interest in such things.. I mean... it'd be incredible if, after all that, against his own values, interests, desires, intents, and preferences, he was actually teaching and transmitting the ryu themselves... it just doesn't make sense, and the idea that the ryu are studied as the ryu themselves, separate and distinct from Budo Taijutsu methodologies, simply has no evidence or support. And that's okay... because that's how the Bujinkan is meant to be.
By the way, I wouldn't class myself as an "expert", but the expertise you're looking for is someone being an expert in koryu and ryu-ha transmission... and those who are such all agree with my take on it (Meik Skoss, Wayne Muromoto, Steve Delaney...). This is why I said my take is more from my study of koryu than from my study with Wayne Roy, both in and out of the Bujinkan.
70's, dude. Again, read a bit closer.
Still, you want definitive? Okay.
Oh, look, Hatsumi in the 70's... and no Togakure Ryu techniques or methods at all (some Kukishin based staff work, the rest is more a set of concepts, with some escape methods from Shinden Fudo Ryu.. but no Togakure Ryu).
More? Okay, have you read Andrew Adams' "Ninja: The Invisible Assassins"? Written in the late 60's, with some quite interesting research covering Hatsumi, Nawa Yumio (last head of Masaki Ryu Kusarijutsu... Hatsumi studied with him for a while), Okuse Heishichiro, former Mayor of Iga-Ueno and "ninja historian", some focus on Fujita Seiko, and even a third, unnamed "secret" ninja who claimed to still be operating... when dealing with Hatsumi (still known as Yoshiaki, if you want to date this), said this (page 166, if you want to check):
"Yoshiaki Hatsumi estimates that it takes least 10 years, the length of time he studied under Takamatsu, to master all the different weapons and techniques. Fudo-ryu includes jujitsu (sic) and iainuki, or fast sword-drawing techniques. Takagi Yoshin-ryu takes in jutaijutsu. The third class, or school of techniques, Gyokko-ryu, includes yubi methods (use of the thumb and fingers) and Togakure-ryu, a 700-year-old school emphasising original ninja techniques.Koto-ryu is centred around a technique called koppo, or bone breaking. The final school, Kuki Shin-ryu, is based on bisento, a type of fighting using a wide-bladed spear with a blade similar to that of a scimitar."
This book was first published (in English, to the West) in 1970, and features Hatsumi and some students (a younger Ishizuka among them) demonstrating techniques... and, what would you know, there's little Togakure Ryu kata there. You can easily recognise a bunch from Koto Ryu (Hissaku, Ransetsu, and others), and Gyokko Ryu (Koku, Ketsu Myaku, and others)... so... er... oh, and you'll notice that there is no mention of Gyokushin, Gikan, or Kumogakure... funny, that...
Hmm... Hayes' first book was "The Ninja And Their Secret Fighting Art", first published in 1981, detailing the lessons he received in Japan... starting when he first arrived there... in 1975... are you sure you're right there? For the record, the 1967 art they're talking about is his karate training, not Bujinkan... he started his first karate dojo in 73, and left it to go to Japan two years later... oh, and Doron Navon had been there for a few years, and got Shidoshi status before Hayes did... as I said, consummate marketer... of course, none of that states that Togakure Ryu was the only thing they did, just that it was the main title used to spread the art... you know, as I've been saying... as well as giving the reasons for it... I mean... in the book, he even does a similar description of the various schools to the one in Adams' book, albeit with some different descriptions (stating that Fudo Ryu specialises in shuriken, for example)...
EDIT: Okay, found the one you're talking about... it's basically a short manual that got published when Hayes had just started training in Japan... and the point is?
Dude... they were using the name as a single title to describe everything taught... it does not, and you really need to get this, it does NOT mean that everything they did was only Togakure Ryu. I could go on, but... you get it, right?
The Ten Chi Jin dates from at least a decade at least before that, gotta tell you... Hatsumi gave Hayes a copy in 82 in the first big seminar tour of the US... Charles Daniel was training from it in 84, and starting to spread it around in 85... Wayne Roy, for the record, received a copy from Nagato just before he left Japan at the end of 1980, so, yeah, kinda familiar with the contents... and, let's be clear again, there are kata drawn from Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu (not the Jutaijutsu), Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, and Togakure Ryu, as well as a number that were created specifically for the book, and did not come from any school... no Gikan, Gyokushin, or Kumogakure... funny, that...
There were a number of structured syllabus' back in the day... there was one that had kyoketsu shoge as a kyu-grade weapon, for example...
That's a couple of superficial aspects... give me the ri-ai behind them, and tell me about how the body structure, power generation, and so forth differ... after all, two different names for cross-stepping isn't going to cut it much...
No, it was a (semi) anonymous character assassination from a disgruntled, angry man with no evidence, support, or backup... and, one might add, pretty much entirely incorrect, as has been demonstrated.
Kid, I've known the man for close to 30 years, have been a student of his through the whole "leaving the Bujinkan" thing, and I'm telling you, despite the wishes and intent of some, Wayne Roy was never kicked out of the Bujinkan. You're wrong, and, frankly, have nothing to support this statement.
Some will... all? Nope. Gillian Booth and I had some good chats about the "good old days" when she was with our schools (she was one of the first female black belts in Australia under us, as well as being a champion judoka in her own right)... nor will Craig Guest... haven't heard anything negative from Duncan Stewart either... some vocal people online, yep. But everyone? Nope. You know how I know? Cause I'm in Australia, and I talk to a number of these people.
No, he wasn't.
No, he wasn't.
No, he doesn't. Really, do you have the first clue what you're talking about, or who you're talking to?
I remained with my teacher, yep. "Disgraced"? Hardly. Universally loved, not at all. But here's a secret for you... even Nagato was happy to talk about Wayne Roy in a respectful manner...
As does every Bujinkan school, mate.
Wow, you just won't let things go, will you? And what makes you think I was "largely self taught"?!? I still had a teacher... you pointed that out yourself above... do you even know how to follow your own argument?
Same with any school, kid. Try giving your Bujinkan rank at a BJJ gym, see if they'll accept it... hell, go to the Genbukan, and you'll start at 9th kyu...
I don't think you get how licences work, really... do you think a Godan in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a licence to teach Gyokko Ryu? Oh, and for the record, the title is Shidoshi-ho, which means I'm authorised to teach (and rank) up to a point, should I decide to go full-Bujinkan...
You really hide it well... considering he has only a passing relevance to this conversation (honestly, pretty much no relevance, but hey, you seem a bit obsessed...)
Please, try to read what's being said.
Ha!!! And, pray tell, what "proof" have you offered? That the primary name the early Bujinkan went under was Togakure Ryu? Yeah... that's not really something that was debated.. you seem to think that means that only Togakure Ryu itself was taught... that's... just wrong. As I've demonstrated. Again, and again, and again...
Or, and bear with me here... it never happened, and was just another case of Ed slurring Wayne's name. Again. By lying. As he did multiple times in the same rant.
Oh, and for this to have gotten to this stage, there would need to have been something lodged by the solicitor in the first place, so.... no. Additionally, this isn't what Ed described... he described a civil case (suing for libel), so there'd be records. Really, try using some logic here, you're missing a lot of the details...
And, so you're suggesting that a non-court case is used as an example in universities regarding case law....?
No. For the last time, he was not. People may have wanted to, but that's immaterial to your claim. Even Ed hasn't stated he was "booted", and no-one else has suggested it. Stop.
Are you kidding? I think I know the rank of my own teacher well enough. He was awarded Rokudan in 1990, and was not promoted afterwards... but by the same token, there was never a demotion either (in fact, I can't think of any case where that has happened in the Bujinkan at all...)
And using said rank to run him down publicly. You know, the thing I said happened. Oh, and it's one letter, basically requesting a show of support from Japan, which included a request to be promoted to Judan (not for the rank, mainly to shut up the others). The request was ignored, so we left. Simple. By the way, the letter itself was considered a private correspondence between Wayne and Hatsumi, who then gave it out to a number of Wayne's detractors in Japan to spread it around... something that we were rather unimpressed with, to say the least, but, again, this is 20 years ago, so it's not something I am interested in dredging up.
Can you actually get back to the topic, or do you have nothing to offer in that regard? You claim that the Bujinkan teaches 9 ryu... back that up. You claim there is ryu-ha study (genuine, koryu-style). Back that up. Attempting to attack myself by attacking my former teacher just shows you have no real argument at all. Ball's in your court, kid.