Questions Concerning Bram Frank and CSSD/SC.
- Thread starter DoxN4cer
- Start date
Tgace said:
Not sure of Lawsuits, I have been told there is a patent for the Gunting, which differs from that of the escalator, just enough to obtain a patent.
Now if the design can be proven to be in use by others prior to the date of filing for the patent, then one could go to court and invalidate the patent, but it would be costly, and time consuming, and it could freeze both parties assets, depending upon how the lawyers get involved, for fighting over the money. Some times, the big boys like the car companies just agree to work together, or ignore each other, and keep moving, to avoid the negative press, and the cost of fighting it out.
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Bester,
Regarding "the answers may vary but the truth doesn't" - It should be the "facts don't vary but depending on the spin, the answers do." Now the questions regarding Bram have been addressed and readdressed and if you do a little research you will find whatever has been posted on the net, here included. I am fascinated why you are so intent on knowing what "the truth" is, especially when you say you just "want to know." Curiouser and curiouser. I am not, however, inclined to attack you or call you names and that sort of thing. I am interested in your interest.
I don't know how Kelly thinks that he feels that I and Bram feel he is "the root of all Bram's political turmoil" but if he wants to, well, OK. As to Bram being on his radio show I'm pretty sure Bram neither has the interest in travelling from Florida to Tacoma to do so or to sit and do a phone interview. I, on the other hand, am perfectly willing to do so as I am, as Kelly said, going to be ar Robert Edward's tournament in August and will be doing a seminar at Robert's school the night before. Since I am NOT the spokesman for CSSD/SC or Bram, I doubt I'll be able to answer any allegations Kelly might make regarding him. I am perfectly willing to "stand tall and make their side of the story public" on any questions that I have facts on and can answer. Most everything stated above I won't be able to answer because I was not there and a lot of it is old history that I was not part of. Anyway, if Kelly wants to publicly get ahold of me and set up something, sure, why not.
There are a couple of things I will say. If I based any friendship on the allegations made against another or what that person's relationship was with another, I would have no friends. No one, not even Jesus Christ, was loved by all. I base my relationship with someone on what has happened between me and that person, not on what has happened with someone else or what that other person says.
That Bram did not consult Kelly to be written about in his book and Kelly felt violated by him doing so is unfortunate. I can say that all references to Kelly have been deleted from the current working manuscript so that should not be a problem in the future.
As to "addressing all the problems directly concerning myself with Bram or Dan" the only problems Kelly and I have that I am aware of are:
1. my unabashed frienship and support of Bram,
2. my calling my line of Modern Arnis "MA-80" and
3. my use of the term of Professor.
I am not in the knife manufacturing, designing, selling, advertising, (insert almost anything regarding the subject here) business.
I have explained #1 here and now and numbers 2&3 to the point of boring everyone to tears.
Well, it's late at night and I am hip deep in a Modern Arnis camp (which is going swimmingly, by the way), I'm tired and it's time for more water and some sleep. Kelly has the MARPPIO camp going as well and I'll bet he's very busy,too. Best of luck to his camp and hello to all the MARPPIO crew.
Night All,
Dan Anderson
Regarding "the answers may vary but the truth doesn't" - It should be the "facts don't vary but depending on the spin, the answers do." Now the questions regarding Bram have been addressed and readdressed and if you do a little research you will find whatever has been posted on the net, here included. I am fascinated why you are so intent on knowing what "the truth" is, especially when you say you just "want to know." Curiouser and curiouser. I am not, however, inclined to attack you or call you names and that sort of thing. I am interested in your interest.
I don't know how Kelly thinks that he feels that I and Bram feel he is "the root of all Bram's political turmoil" but if he wants to, well, OK. As to Bram being on his radio show I'm pretty sure Bram neither has the interest in travelling from Florida to Tacoma to do so or to sit and do a phone interview. I, on the other hand, am perfectly willing to do so as I am, as Kelly said, going to be ar Robert Edward's tournament in August and will be doing a seminar at Robert's school the night before. Since I am NOT the spokesman for CSSD/SC or Bram, I doubt I'll be able to answer any allegations Kelly might make regarding him. I am perfectly willing to "stand tall and make their side of the story public" on any questions that I have facts on and can answer. Most everything stated above I won't be able to answer because I was not there and a lot of it is old history that I was not part of. Anyway, if Kelly wants to publicly get ahold of me and set up something, sure, why not.
There are a couple of things I will say. If I based any friendship on the allegations made against another or what that person's relationship was with another, I would have no friends. No one, not even Jesus Christ, was loved by all. I base my relationship with someone on what has happened between me and that person, not on what has happened with someone else or what that other person says.
That Bram did not consult Kelly to be written about in his book and Kelly felt violated by him doing so is unfortunate. I can say that all references to Kelly have been deleted from the current working manuscript so that should not be a problem in the future.
As to "addressing all the problems directly concerning myself with Bram or Dan" the only problems Kelly and I have that I am aware of are:
1. my unabashed frienship and support of Bram,
2. my calling my line of Modern Arnis "MA-80" and
3. my use of the term of Professor.
I am not in the knife manufacturing, designing, selling, advertising, (insert almost anything regarding the subject here) business.
I have explained #1 here and now and numbers 2&3 to the point of boring everyone to tears.
Well, it's late at night and I am hip deep in a Modern Arnis camp (which is going swimmingly, by the way), I'm tired and it's time for more water and some sleep. Kelly has the MARPPIO camp going as well and I'll bet he's very busy,too. Best of luck to his camp and hello to all the MARPPIO crew.
Night All,
Dan Anderson
Bester
<font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu
Datu Worden,
Thank you for taking a few moments to address this. It is much appreciated. I do apologize, but I must 'hide' behind my handle. I am not in a position where I can be as open as I would prefer.
Mr. Anderson,
In regards to your inquiry "I am fascinated why you are so intent on knowing what "the truth" is, especially when you say you just "want to know." " I will answer you. Because, me thinks some doth protest too much. I asked a simple question. It turned into an evasive tangent. Therefore, I set out to get the answers. The more people protest, the harder I will dig.
For example, the question "Did Mr. Frank cut an assistant at an event?".
I have been told privately that this is a fact.
So, this generates several new questions.
- Why was Mr. Frank on the floor with a live blade?
- Why was a live blade being used in a demo?
- Doesn't Mr. Frank have the ability to distinguish between a live blade and a trainer?
-- If so, why didn't he then?
-- If not, why was he allowed to demo?
- etc.
That single occurrence indicates possible concerns with his competence as an instructor and his regard for his assistants safety at the least.
Given the high regard he seems to be held in by some here, I felt there had to be an answer that isn't "Bram Franks a wackjob".
So, I asked. And, after getting a run around and everyone seeming to ask "Why do you want to know", I asked again.
Thankfully, Datu Worden had the courage to sign up and give a straightforward perspective on the situation. Are there other sides? Sure. Will they speak up? I doubt it.
Now, if the "peanuts" had simple answered my initial question rather than jumping all over me and questioning my "right" to ask questions, I would have moved on, and gone back to kicking Soke-Dopeys and PowderPuff Ninja-Wannabees. My "Right" to ask a question or questions about an art, style or instructor is not limited to what level of involvement I have with said entity. I will ask what I want, where I want, to whom I want. There is nothing in this, or most forums rules that state otherwise.
Frank,
I had to ask them. No one else would. :asian:
-- Al B.
Thank you for taking a few moments to address this. It is much appreciated. I do apologize, but I must 'hide' behind my handle. I am not in a position where I can be as open as I would prefer.
Mr. Anderson,
In regards to your inquiry "I am fascinated why you are so intent on knowing what "the truth" is, especially when you say you just "want to know." " I will answer you. Because, me thinks some doth protest too much. I asked a simple question. It turned into an evasive tangent. Therefore, I set out to get the answers. The more people protest, the harder I will dig.
For example, the question "Did Mr. Frank cut an assistant at an event?".
I have been told privately that this is a fact.
So, this generates several new questions.
- Why was Mr. Frank on the floor with a live blade?
- Why was a live blade being used in a demo?
- Doesn't Mr. Frank have the ability to distinguish between a live blade and a trainer?
-- If so, why didn't he then?
-- If not, why was he allowed to demo?
- etc.
That single occurrence indicates possible concerns with his competence as an instructor and his regard for his assistants safety at the least.
Given the high regard he seems to be held in by some here, I felt there had to be an answer that isn't "Bram Franks a wackjob".
So, I asked. And, after getting a run around and everyone seeming to ask "Why do you want to know", I asked again.
Thankfully, Datu Worden had the courage to sign up and give a straightforward perspective on the situation. Are there other sides? Sure. Will they speak up? I doubt it.
Now, if the "peanuts" had simple answered my initial question rather than jumping all over me and questioning my "right" to ask questions, I would have moved on, and gone back to kicking Soke-Dopeys and PowderPuff Ninja-Wannabees. My "Right" to ask a question or questions about an art, style or instructor is not limited to what level of involvement I have with said entity. I will ask what I want, where I want, to whom I want. There is nothing in this, or most forums rules that state otherwise.
Frank,
I had to ask them. No one else would. :asian:
-- Al B.
James Patrick
Orange Belt
I probably wonÂ’t have the time to respond again, so IÂ’ll just say my piece here and move on. Plus, I donÂ’t really care that much about the gunting stuff, as I have some issues with the practicality of it anyways. But I do care about Professor RemyÂ’s art, and it is a shame to see so many people bickering and trying to ride on his bandwagon, even long after this great man has passed away.
The issue that makes me wonder about Bram Frank is this: you have a list of people alive today who have had negative things to say about him: Joe Lewis, Kelly Worden, Jim Keating, Sal Glasser, Bob Taylor, Jot Singh Khalsa, Mike Janich (got this from the radio show), and who knows who else. I think some of the other Modern Arnis leaders also might be in that boat somewhere. With all that, the only responses are “Go see him for yourself to get ‘the truth’” or “the people who are nay saying all have an agenda because they are his competition.” All of these responses don’t fit logically. There is no valid clarification to the nay saying.
I could maybe understand if one or two people have a beef with Mr. Frank. But there is a kind of a grocery list of very credible people who are not tied in to the Modern Arnis goofy politics. It is not like Bram is so successful that he is mopping the floor with his competition either. I mean, let’s get real. I would say that Mr. Keating and Mr. Janich at the very least are more successful in the knife world at the moment. People with more success with no political interests are not going to risk their success and career just to “pick on” someone else that is no threat to them. Plus, when ALL these people collaboratively have a story to tell and are willing to risk reputation and success to take a stance? One must guess that their must be some truth to it.
This is my biggest problem with this, anyways.
Sincerely,
James
P.S. Dan, I must take exception to one thing you said. I felt that comparing Mr. Frank to Jesus was a bit extreme. I would take some offense to it, but I don’t think you meant anything ill by it. I just think that comparing a martial arts guy with questionable integrity to a religious icon who some believe to be “the son of God” is a bit over the top here, and maybe a little inappropriate. Please don’t take offense, this is just how I feel.
The issue that makes me wonder about Bram Frank is this: you have a list of people alive today who have had negative things to say about him: Joe Lewis, Kelly Worden, Jim Keating, Sal Glasser, Bob Taylor, Jot Singh Khalsa, Mike Janich (got this from the radio show), and who knows who else. I think some of the other Modern Arnis leaders also might be in that boat somewhere. With all that, the only responses are “Go see him for yourself to get ‘the truth’” or “the people who are nay saying all have an agenda because they are his competition.” All of these responses don’t fit logically. There is no valid clarification to the nay saying.
I could maybe understand if one or two people have a beef with Mr. Frank. But there is a kind of a grocery list of very credible people who are not tied in to the Modern Arnis goofy politics. It is not like Bram is so successful that he is mopping the floor with his competition either. I mean, let’s get real. I would say that Mr. Keating and Mr. Janich at the very least are more successful in the knife world at the moment. People with more success with no political interests are not going to risk their success and career just to “pick on” someone else that is no threat to them. Plus, when ALL these people collaboratively have a story to tell and are willing to risk reputation and success to take a stance? One must guess that their must be some truth to it.
This is my biggest problem with this, anyways.
Sincerely,
James
P.S. Dan, I must take exception to one thing you said. I felt that comparing Mr. Frank to Jesus was a bit extreme. I would take some offense to it, but I don’t think you meant anything ill by it. I just think that comparing a martial arts guy with questionable integrity to a religious icon who some believe to be “the son of God” is a bit over the top here, and maybe a little inappropriate. Please don’t take offense, this is just how I feel.
Bester
<font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu
I'm not. Or, maybe I am. Would stating what my name is make a difference? I say I'm "Al Bester". Prove I'm not. Of course, that would be muddying this issue. The fact of who I am is not important. The questions raised are. If I were suddenly discovered to be George Bush, or Bill Clinton, or Al "Bester" Best, what difference does it really make?Tgace said:
The questions are valid questions.
Now Officer, in your own line of work, unless you are a career desk jockey, you should understand the value of getting to the bottom of things. Of the Truth. You understand probing questions, and tunneling through the BS to get to the facts. You also know when someone is giving you a run around, blurring the issue and otherwise sidestepping the questions at hand.
I don't care if Mr. Frank is Jesus himself, spends all his free time feeding the hungry, and caring for war orphans. That would all be great, but NONE of it answers the questions asked or is even remotely related to them.
"Aw Gee Wiz Al, you sure does knows alots about dis har Arnis stuff for sumwon whos duns does de arnes". Yep, it's called reading. Theres almost 12,000 posts here. That is alot of information, alot of history. I read, I learn, I study. And, I ask questions, often questions no one else can or has the balls to ask. Why? Because. Am I a bit too direct or blunt? Damn right. If that bothers anyone, then too bad. Grow some stones, stop being so defensive and either step up, or step out.
Now, it's great that a few folks want to say how great a guy Mr. Frank is. Thats fine.
Doesn't answer the questions.
Datu Worden gave some of the answers, and pointed in several directions for more info.
Anyone else?
How about you Tom? Can you or your pal Tim there answer any of them?
Or will it just be more whining about "why I want to know" and "what gives me the right" and "gee you sound like so-n-so", wah wah wah?
Bester
<font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu
Hmm. Who.Tgace said:
==
Bester 11
Tgace 9
Dan Anderson 8
Palusut 6
Datu Puti 3
Tulisan 3
DoxN4cer 3
WMAA 2
sayoc FF 1
Datu Kelly S. Worden 1
arnisador 1
James Patrick 1
Rich Parsons 1
==
So, what are you saying "Tom"?
I see WMAA, WMAC, IMAF, MA80, Several Indies, and myself.
Now big player that I am in the Modern Arnis Games considering I registered for MT in January 2004, and my first post in MA was 05-28-2005, yup, big player. I know, I have been biding my time for 18 months beating up Soke-Dopeys, PowerRangers and morons waiting for a chance to pounce on a bit player in a bit art. Scully, I think they are onto me. 1 to Beam Up! :rofl:
Seriously Tom, now that we've gotten the required rep-dings out of the way, what are you saying here. Spit it out man.
Or, can't you due to the professional ties one of your own instructors has to Bram Frank? Maybe that is why you seem to so badly want to tangent this away from my questions, and turn it into something else? Hmm. Interesting.
The ninjas will have to wait for their beating. This new track could be fun. What is the connections between Dan Anderson, Bram Frank, Tom G and Tim K? I think the answers are in the archives. Maybe its simply a matter of protecting ones own interests. Hmm. That of course would be another thread. This one is about Bram Frank and his systems and competence as an instructor.
-Al
Tgace
Grandmaster
None of those people are my instructors. Ive trained a little with Jerome B., my best friend Paul M.(and student of Jerome) is who taught me most of what I know of MA. Thats far from a secret around here. Ive met Tim K. once going on 6-8 years ago (if he even remembers it) and never met Dan A. or Bram. Dont own any Gunting products or even a Dan Anderson book (sorry Dan 
)
Why am I so interested? I guess its just because my job has made me an insomniac with nothing better to do in the middle of the night than surf this board until I get tired...why dont I "answer the question" (besides not knowing a question was posed)? The answer is above, Im not privy enough to know. So my interest lies in the realm of "funny you, of all people. should ask".
My presence here holds as much weight as yours. Im a nobody in the MA world. But as Im a member here I can post my opinion and am not afraid to put my name behind it. (....so is your name "Al Bester"? or is it still "I am not in a position where I can be as open as I would prefer."??) And you will note my opinion has had nothing to do with my opinion of Bram Frank, just suspicion of the whos, whens and whys stuff like this gets stirred up.
But as it is out in the public, I wonder "que bono?" Who benefits from dragging this out again after things have been civil for a long while? Whats the "end game"? Run Bram out out of business? Discredit his "piece of the Pie" so there is more for others? Sabotage seminars at the beginning of the seminar circuit season? Personal vendetta? Or just plain old internet fun?
My radar goes off around this kinda stuff when it pops up suddenly. Especially when it originates from someone who not so long ago went off on a "holier than though" criticism about this exact same stuff. But I do find it odd who's "camp" you seem to be aligning me with. Many people have "issues" in their past and present, who focuses on who and when piques my interest. I can be a very suspicious person. My suspicion of coincidence is acute...in my job this is the point where I attempt to gather evidence that either supports or disproves my suspicion. However I dont have the time, interest or resources/ability to do that. So I guess I just live with suspicion.
Once again "waddle waddle".....
)Why am I so interested? I guess its just because my job has made me an insomniac with nothing better to do in the middle of the night than surf this board until I get tired...why dont I "answer the question" (besides not knowing a question was posed)? The answer is above, Im not privy enough to know. So my interest lies in the realm of "funny you, of all people. should ask".
My presence here holds as much weight as yours. Im a nobody in the MA world. But as Im a member here I can post my opinion and am not afraid to put my name behind it. (....so is your name "Al Bester"? or is it still "I am not in a position where I can be as open as I would prefer."??) And you will note my opinion has had nothing to do with my opinion of Bram Frank, just suspicion of the whos, whens and whys stuff like this gets stirred up.
But as it is out in the public, I wonder "que bono?" Who benefits from dragging this out again after things have been civil for a long while? Whats the "end game"? Run Bram out out of business? Discredit his "piece of the Pie" so there is more for others? Sabotage seminars at the beginning of the seminar circuit season? Personal vendetta? Or just plain old internet fun?
My radar goes off around this kinda stuff when it pops up suddenly. Especially when it originates from someone who not so long ago went off on a "holier than though" criticism about this exact same stuff. But I do find it odd who's "camp" you seem to be aligning me with. Many people have "issues" in their past and present, who focuses on who and when piques my interest. I can be a very suspicious person. My suspicion of coincidence is acute...in my job this is the point where I attempt to gather evidence that either supports or disproves my suspicion. However I dont have the time, interest or resources/ability to do that. So I guess I just live with suspicion.
Bester said:
Bester said:
Hmmm...guess not.Bester said:
Once again "waddle waddle".....
Bester
<font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu
Since you missed them, heres some of them:Tgace said:
From post#23
How honorable is it for someone who had their rank stripped or almost stripped to continue to insist brag about endorsements from a dead man who can no longer speak the truth? I know of 3 arnis instructors who are doing this.
From post#30
Since we wish to deal in facts, I'll ask some simple yes or no questions.
1- Was Brams Modern Arnis rank stripped from him?
2- Did he cut an assistant with a live blade on the training floor?
3- Did he attend a black tie event and create a poor impression by repeatedly playing with his knife?
4- Did another attendee threaten to correct him if he did not stop?
5- Did Grandmaster Remy Presas recognize Mr. Frank's program as Modern Arnis after stripping Mr. Frank of his rank?
Now for the hard essay questions:
Returning to #1, if so, when, and by whom?
Returning to #2, did this happen more than once?
Adding to the list, What is the truth about the Gunting knife's origins?
From post#45
For example, the question "Did Mr. Frank cut an assistant at an event?".
I have been told privately that this is a fact.
So, this generates several new questions.
- Why was Mr. Frank on the floor with a live blade?
- Why was a live blade being used in a demo?
- Doesn't Mr. Frank have the ability to distinguish between a live blade and a trainer?
-- If so, why didn't he then?
-- If not, why was he allowed to demo?
- etc.
That single occurrence indicates possible concerns with his competence as an instructor and his regard for his assistants safety at the least.
If you don't know, then why are you one of the top posters on this thread?
It is logical that I would be on the active list. My questions and all that. But why is a know-nothing the second most active poster here?
Not on this question.
I have stated this before both privately and publicly. My name is Al. I grew up in Lackawanna NY, still have family there, visit on occasion. What, you want me to send you proof like tax records or a drivers licence? Sorry, no. Take my word or leave it. Your belief in who I am makes no difference to the validity of the questions I asked.
And I ask again, who do you think is behind this?
Tim Hartman, who your associate seems to hold an eternal hate-on for, and you and your friends like to take subtle shots at every chance you get?
Kelly Worden, who has publicly hammered Bram Frank over his actions, named names and holds nothing back?
Dan Anderson, seeking to get some attention to his event? The any notice is good notice bit?
Jeff Delaney, self proclaimed grandmaster and holder of all that is holy?
???
Who? Are your spidey-senses tingling? Do you see a game within a game within a game?
I've never met any of them, but must somehow be allied with someone in order to have some interest in asking these questions.
The fact that I stated quite clearly my reasons seem to have been missed by you. Let me repeat it here to save you time looking for it
Tim Hartman, who your associate seems to hold an eternal hate-on for, and you and your friends like to take subtle shots at every chance you get?
Kelly Worden, who has publicly hammered Bram Frank over his actions, named names and holds nothing back?
Dan Anderson, seeking to get some attention to his event? The any notice is good notice bit?
Jeff Delaney, self proclaimed grandmaster and holder of all that is holy?
???
Who? Are your spidey-senses tingling? Do you see a game within a game within a game?
I've never met any of them, but must somehow be allied with someone in order to have some interest in asking these questions.
The fact that I stated quite clearly my reasons seem to have been missed by you. Let me repeat it here to save you time looking for it
I have a problem with the jerks in the arts. I also have a problem with someone being falsely accused. So, I seek the truth.
How about the truth is finally out there and this ugly issue can safely be buried under the "solved" pile.
Yup, spidey senses tingling. Please, don't put on a spandex outfit.
I allign you with Jerome Barber. This is based on my own observation of you and those who also post around you as well as your own statements elsewhere on this site.
True or False: Barber maintains/maintained a relationship with Dan Anderson, and Bram Frank. - True
True or False: Barber was 1/2 of the "NorShadow" team along with your pal Tim Kashino (DoxN4cer). - True
True of False: The Norshadow Duo was involved in major dishonorable gameplaying at an event? - True
True or False: There is ongoing game playing here between camp Barber and camp Hartman? - True (records on 3 forums confirm this: Search for Symposium in the Modern Arnis forum for back history)
Of course, this thread is not about Barber, Hartman, Worden, Anderson, Delany, etc or the little games you all have played over the years. That was what I was bitching so loudly about, in part in my little rant. This isn't the place for that though.
It is about Bram Frank.
So, you can (now that I've "found" them for you)
- answer the questions or
- you can continue to tangent and further muddy the water or
- you can walk away and let those who can answer them speak without your noise.
Or, you can start a thread about such suspicions. Say a "Who the hell is this Bester Guy anyway, always sticking his nose in where it's not wanted (by me, and the jerks here)" thread in the Great Debate forum.
But not here.
This is about Bram Frank and certain questions.
Period.
Stop it, you're "quacking" me up! :rofl:
Tgace
Grandmaster
Seems like a lot of people are doing a lot of things with the art since the Profs passing. I also recall there was a lot of issuing, revoking, retitling and maneuvering in rank when he was alive so I dont know if thats a great standard of "proof".Bester said:
1-5: I dont know.
As to the Gunting origins. Is there a patent/copyright lawsuit? Honest question. I dont know. Even if there is/isnt. Welcome to the world of business. Right or wrong if somebody doesnt run with their idea and/or patent it, somebody else will run with it and make $$$. Edison was notorious for it...
Dont know. Neither do you, other than hearsay apparently. Accidents happen. Was it a single incident, is it an ongoing course of conduct? What was the circumstance around the incident?
Already stated that I spend too much time on the computer. When Im off of work I cant sleep at night lately because Im used to working the graveyard shift so I post here a lot. When I wake up I sit at the computer with my coffee (Tim Hortons currently) for a couple of hours instead of the paper and TV. Besides that you keep addressing me and asking me questions...
Then what was up with the "I am not in a position where I can be as open as I would prefer." bit with Datu Worden?
Pretty presumptuous of you isnt it?
My "alignment" and extent of relationships with whomever is not the issue. It was clarified in my last post, has never been denied, and is obvious to everybody here. Personally... yours is. As this wasnt initiated with a "Hey I have heard some questionable things about Bram. Can anybody tell me any facts?" tone. But a "Who would want to associate themselves with this whackjob?" one. There obviously is a bias, if not agenda implied.
So there ya go. If you want to keep boosting my post count (and keep me occupied) we can continue......
Bester
<font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu
Then why are you so against my asking these questions?Tgace said:
I don't know either. I'm not involved in the knife industry. There are others better qualified to answer that than I.
Thats what I want to know, hense the questions that you are so much agaisnt my asking.
Try some warm milk.
Or answer my questions rather than rattle off vague insinuations.
Warm milk and a clear concious, both help one sleep at night.
I sleep like a baby, BTW. (Thats waking hourly, making alot of noise and needing to use the john)
Was in reference to the handle comment.
No, why would it be?
So, who am I aligned with, where is my bias, and what is my agenda?
I still say you need warm milk.
Now, isn't there a rule against posting just to up ones post count?
Can you contribute or just further drag us away from the focal point?
Though, since you are "awake" please feel free to answer the 3 questions in red.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Since the question of patents came up, I am in the knife industry enough to have some baseline understanding of these things.
Here are links to the patents:
Khalsa:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...Knife&OS=Khalsa+AND+Knife&RS=Khalsa+AND+Knife
Gunting:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=Frank-$.INZZ.&s2=knife.ABST.&OS=IN/Frank-$+AND+ABST/knife&RS=IN/Frank-$+AND+ABST/knife
Now, in case the images didn't turn out, here are some pics of the Gunting and Khalsa:
Khalsa:
http://www.ctico.com/jot.htm
Gunting (trainer towards bottom):
http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/list.php?genre=knife&offset=21&per_page=10
How patents work when one goes into production through a company is this: the owner or "assignee" of the patent isn't the inventor, it is the company producing the product. So in both cases according to these documents as I understand them, Spyderco owned BOTH the patent.
It is clear that the patent for the Khalsa was made before the Gunting. So why can't Jot Singh successfully sue Bram for copyright infringment? Because in both cases "Spyderco" is the assignee; obviously Spyderco cannot sue themselves.
The only thing different between the 2 knives are some design differences specific to Spyderco proprietary aspects, such as the use of the compression lock with the gunting.
Now the major difference that one may argue in the patent for the gunting is that it specifically patents the idea of "kenetic opening" as a use for this design. There are 2 aspects to this that one must understand, however. #1. it is difficult or near impossible to have ANY legal claims to an "idea," especially in the martial arts for a number of reasons regardless of what the patent may say. Generally, you can patent designs and products, NOT ideas. #2. Any claims to inventorship, legal or otherwise, is null and void if there is evidence that the idea originated from someone else. The claim here is that James Keating introduced the idea with the Khalsa based of a magazine article from the 60's; this is according to "On the Edge" radio show.
Conclusion: You folks can believe what you would like. This is some hard evidence here. I am reserving my opinions and arguements in this one...I am just providing the information.
Thank you,
Paul
Here are links to the patents:
Khalsa:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...Knife&OS=Khalsa+AND+Knife&RS=Khalsa+AND+Knife
Gunting:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=Frank-$.INZZ.&s2=knife.ABST.&OS=IN/Frank-$+AND+ABST/knife&RS=IN/Frank-$+AND+ABST/knife
Now, in case the images didn't turn out, here are some pics of the Gunting and Khalsa:
Khalsa:
http://www.ctico.com/jot.htm
Gunting (trainer towards bottom):
http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/list.php?genre=knife&offset=21&per_page=10
How patents work when one goes into production through a company is this: the owner or "assignee" of the patent isn't the inventor, it is the company producing the product. So in both cases according to these documents as I understand them, Spyderco owned BOTH the patent.
It is clear that the patent for the Khalsa was made before the Gunting. So why can't Jot Singh successfully sue Bram for copyright infringment? Because in both cases "Spyderco" is the assignee; obviously Spyderco cannot sue themselves.
The only thing different between the 2 knives are some design differences specific to Spyderco proprietary aspects, such as the use of the compression lock with the gunting.
Now the major difference that one may argue in the patent for the gunting is that it specifically patents the idea of "kenetic opening" as a use for this design. There are 2 aspects to this that one must understand, however. #1. it is difficult or near impossible to have ANY legal claims to an "idea," especially in the martial arts for a number of reasons regardless of what the patent may say. Generally, you can patent designs and products, NOT ideas. #2. Any claims to inventorship, legal or otherwise, is null and void if there is evidence that the idea originated from someone else. The claim here is that James Keating introduced the idea with the Khalsa based of a magazine article from the 60's; this is according to "On the Edge" radio show.
Conclusion: You folks can believe what you would like. This is some hard evidence here. I am reserving my opinions and arguements in this one...I am just providing the information.
Thank you,
Paul
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
James,
Al,
1. Sorry pal, but this makes your inquiries and the reasons behind them suspect.
2. You are saying people are evasive but you aren't looking at the obvious: the person you are inquiring about you are not making inquiries TO. You are asking for answers by people who werent there to be made in a public forum. My own answers are I wasn't there and I don't know and I don't care. People do things during the passage of life that they do not do now. I can tell you a story about Remy Presas or Tim Hartman or Kelly Worden or Dan Anderson or Joe Lewis or many other people which has nothing to do with the high price of corn because the story is not the person any of them are today. Yet, each story, taken from the past could misrepresent the man in present time. You now have Kelly's story. Go ask Bram and if he doesn't want to talk to you, then, too bad. You are not the first to want to "get the facts and clarify the situation for the betterment for all." At this time it looks like you want to damn him in the public forums rather than get questions answered.
3. Please, get real.
The camp is over. Time to relax and sleep.
Dan Anderson
My wife made a face when I told her I wrote. Let me re-state: No single person is universally loved. That is what I meant by that - nothing more. I understand the impression it creates and I take the wording of it back.
Al,
1. Sorry pal, but this makes your inquiries and the reasons behind them suspect.
2. You are saying people are evasive but you aren't looking at the obvious: the person you are inquiring about you are not making inquiries TO. You are asking for answers by people who werent there to be made in a public forum. My own answers are I wasn't there and I don't know and I don't care. People do things during the passage of life that they do not do now. I can tell you a story about Remy Presas or Tim Hartman or Kelly Worden or Dan Anderson or Joe Lewis or many other people which has nothing to do with the high price of corn because the story is not the person any of them are today. Yet, each story, taken from the past could misrepresent the man in present time. You now have Kelly's story. Go ask Bram and if he doesn't want to talk to you, then, too bad. You are not the first to want to "get the facts and clarify the situation for the betterment for all." At this time it looks like you want to damn him in the public forums rather than get questions answered.
3. Please, get real.
The camp is over. Time to relax and sleep.
Dan Anderson
Bester
<font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu
Dan,
Or that a question is only valid if asked by certain people?
Sorry, I don't have to identify myself in detail. Too much chance of problems then. For example, last thing I need is a bored cop to dig around, get my info and cause problems, or just make sure I'm always stopped when driving through his town. Or some knife weilding nutcase to show up at my parents house because I dared ask questions about him on a talk board. Etc. Paranoid? Yup, but some of you folks have proven you like the games, and based on a few comments, some of you "people" pay for keeps. And, no, that was not a shot at anyone in particular, but I do know some of you folks get off on "dojo busting" and "proving" yourselves, and I simply do not wish to be harassed or injured because some one suffers from small penis problems.
As I said, my name is Al. Last name is Best. Nickname from school is "Bester". Was a joke with a teacher. I like sci fi. The username/nickname fit.
Don't believe me, too quacking bad, stickmen. I don't care.
(Jedi Mind Trick) You don't need to see my ID (/Jedi Mind Trick)
I wouldn't trust my kid with Michael Jackson, despite the fact that he got off each time.
And, as to asking Bram Frank, he has or had a membership here. Maybe he can answer them publically himself? Once and for all get it all out there?
Straight from the source, his own words, neutral ground, no chance of it being misunderstood, etc.
So? Are you saying that the questions are not valid ones?Dan Anderson said:
Or that a question is only valid if asked by certain people?
Sorry, I don't have to identify myself in detail. Too much chance of problems then. For example, last thing I need is a bored cop to dig around, get my info and cause problems, or just make sure I'm always stopped when driving through his town. Or some knife weilding nutcase to show up at my parents house because I dared ask questions about him on a talk board. Etc. Paranoid? Yup, but some of you folks have proven you like the games, and based on a few comments, some of you "people" pay for keeps. And, no, that was not a shot at anyone in particular, but I do know some of you folks get off on "dojo busting" and "proving" yourselves, and I simply do not wish to be harassed or injured because some one suffers from small penis problems.
As I said, my name is Al. Last name is Best. Nickname from school is "Bester". Was a joke with a teacher. I like sci fi. The username/nickname fit.
Don't believe me, too quacking bad, stickmen. I don't care.
(Jedi Mind Trick) You don't need to see my ID (/Jedi Mind Trick)
Well, maybe some of those who can answer the questions should post the answers rather than all the people who can't popping out of the woodwork and tangenting. And, I am sorry but what one did in the past is often an indication of what they may do in the future.
I wouldn't trust my kid with Michael Jackson, despite the fact that he got off each time.
And, as to asking Bram Frank, he has or had a membership here. Maybe he can answer them publically himself? Once and for all get it all out there?
Straight from the source, his own words, neutral ground, no chance of it being misunderstood, etc.
It's called sarcasm Sir. I will try to denote such things in the future to make it very apparent so that those who are tired, slow readers or just a bit dense will see it. (See, that is more sarcasm)
Glad it went well. (saw the other post about it.)
Ahmmmm,
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Forum header:
"What is The Great Debate? The Great Debate is the never ending argument over lineage, history, terms, definitions etc. This is -THE- only place on MartialTalk where such debates will be allowed. Read the forum rules for the specific guidelines."
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