Questions Concerning Bram Frank and CSSD/SC.

[Bester]

Those are probably issues that you could approach Bram on in person, rather than sling somebody else's second-hand mud around. That is, if you really cared to hear the other side of the story (stories). Substance, sir, not mud.

Tim Kashino

I do, that is why I asked. I asked a question, made a temporary judgement based on the information available, and asked for clarification. I would very much like to hear the other side, that is why I asked, a fact that seems to be beyond some. I want to see this in public, not in private, not on a phone, not in a back room which seems the standard manner of dealing with things here, back rooms and shadows. No back rooms nor shadows for me, thank you. Straight up, in public, in the light where the honorless cannot live.

 

[Bester]

Hmmm..yes that was a simple fact finding question with no slant, angle or mudslinging intended. Must have misread the intention....

Considering how this thread we all were involved in on this topic got locked down, and your (not saying undeserved) criticism of Arnis practicioners. I would think ya would have been aware of its **** stirring potential. And the way its phrased...well.

Walks like a duck..lets see if it quacks.

See above. If that's not too ducklike, and if it is, well, quack off.
Obviously, you have a problem with anyone asking questions that don't fit your own agenda.

Fine. Let me ask this one then: How honorable is it for someone who had their rank stripped or almost stripped to continue to insist brag about endorsements from a dead man who can no longer speak the truth? I know of 3 arnis instructors who are doing this. I'm sure there are more.

I did not ask my question to start a pissup. I asked since I had read some things and wanted clarification. Obviously trying to get to the truth of a messy issue is also not something wanted by at least some arnis people.

 

[Bester]

The question was asked earlier by myself was what were some of the other MA groups out there due to the fact that the "other" category had was tied for #2 in the poll.

Some other groups were mentioned that caused no questions to be raised, some others however did raise some questions. Some questions were answered and some points were made. If we continue in this light then we have a chance for this thread to continue to be productive and on track.

We can and should examine information and claims analytically and empirically balanced with the fact that not all questions in the world can be, nor will be answered in one thread.

-Palusut

My apologies for any disruption. I'll pick up the Bram question in a new thread later.

 

[Tgace]

I do, that is why I asked. I asked a question, made a temporary judgement based on the information available, and asked for clarification. I would very much like to hear the other side, that is why I asked, a fact that seems to be beyond some. I want to see this in public, not in private, not on a phone, not in a back room which seems the standard manner of dealing with things here, back rooms and shadows. No back rooms nor shadows for me, thank you. Straight up, in public, in the light where the honorless cannot live.

All talking about a guy who isnt here and cant answer for himself. So its going to be a bunch of people with second hand knowledge spreading gossip. Very "fact finding"..yeah very honorable.

 

[Tgace]

I did not ask my question to start a pissup. I asked since I had read some things and wanted clarification. Obviously trying to get to the truth of a messy issue is also not something wanted by at least some arnis people.

OK..calling someone a whackjob must be some new unbiased way of getting people to discuss the "truth". Must have been out of the loop for a while.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Wouldn't be more productive to focus on Dan's and Bram's event that is in a couple days than bicker over this?

:-offtopic

 

[Guro Harold]

All talking about a guy who isnt here and cant answer for himself. So its going to be a bunch of people with second hand knowledge spreading gossip. Very "fact finding"..yeah very honorable.

Hi TGrace,

Respectfully speaking, was Bester responding to this post:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=404660&postcount=47?

He suggested that he could spin off this topic and I would have to agree.

-Palusut

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Bester,

Well, this has certainly stirred up a bit of a storm, hasn't it. Well, your questions have been taken up here and there in other forums and depending on who you listen to, the answer varies.

My dealings with Bram have all been on the up and up. It is VERY common knowledge that Kelly Worden is, to put it delicately, not an admirer of Bram. The stories, being what they are, may have elements of truth and elements of untruth. Well, the best thing to do is for you to meet him and ask him for yourself. He is very approachable and has all sorts of documentation regarding any questions you might like to ask. As I said, he has always been on the up and up with me, does not speak desparagingly of others, his students have the best manners of any group I have ever met, and he always credit Remy Presas as being his teacher and inspiration.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Guro Harold]

Dan,

Thanks for your reply.

Sometimes groups can get into a rut of mistrust and defensiveness regarding topics of discussion which can cause stagnation.

I do believe that allowing people to openly ask and answer the hard questions breaches the stagnant waters and is a path to generating respect.

I am proud that the members of the MT Modern Arnis Forum are doing this overal more constructively.

We may not agree totally with the other person, like the answer, and even critically challenge various points but at least we are open to discuss it maturely.

Who can truly understand what state of mind GM Presas when he was in the mist of his mortal fight? We would hope that he had made peace with his family, his students, his life, and his God. I hope also that those who were estranged from him had made peace with him before he had died.

I believe that he did his best to make sure that he looked out for as many people as he could considering his situation.

In light of that, I am forever touched that he even cared enough to even want to talk to me personally and give me his advice once on the phone when he could not make the last seminar that he was scheduled to attend in Raleigh. I was not the first nor the only one that he asked to speak to that day, but it was an honor all the same for him to ask for me by name.

-Harold

 

[Bester]

OK..calling someone a whackjob must be some new unbiased way of getting people to discuss the "truth". Must have been out of the loop for a while.

What we have here, is failure to communicate.

What I said:

Originally Posted by Bester
I have to ask a question about Bram Frank.
What's the story here?
I did a search and found stories where he supposedly cut up his students, stole knife designs, pulled a knife on a celeb. at some big event, and even that he was stripped of his MA rank by GM Presas.

Seems somethings a bit fubar here. I certainly wouldn't want to hang around and give props to someone that much a wackjob.

So, what gives?

• I did a search on the name.
• I found several comments that were less than positive.
• I searched a little more on a few other forums, and found similar statements.
• Based on those statements, Mr. Frank appears to not be an individual with whom I would wish to train. However,
• Having looked at a few of those on Mr. Anderson's camp roster, I cannot believe they would associate with someone that bad.
• Therefore I asked my question. "So, What Gives?" with the hope that someone, maybe even Mr. Frank himself would respond. He does, or did have a membership here at one time, and it's not that hard to sign up again.

I did not call Mr. Frank a wackjob, I said based on what I read it seemed that way, and sought clarification of the events refered to, especially in the light of the fact that the Arnis crab-bucket seems to again be in full swing.

Since we wish to deal in facts, I'll ask some simple yes or no questions.

1- Was Brams Modern Arnis rank stripped from him?
2- Did he cut an assistant with a live blade on the training floor?
3- Did he attend a black tie event and create a poor impression by repeatedly playing with his knife?
4- Did another attendee threaten to correct him if he did not stop?
5- Did Grandmaster Remy Presas recognize Mr. Frank's program as Modern Arnis after stripping Mr. Frank of his rank?

Now for the hard essay questions:
Returning to #1, if so, when, and by whom?

Returning to #2, did this happen more than once?

Adding to the list, What is the truth about the Gunting knife's origins?



Now, since I believe in answering questions in advance heres a few Q&A to save a few agenda minded clique members some bytes:

Q- Why do I want to know?
A- Because I do.

Q- Who am I with?
A- No one. I think that record is clear to anyone with more than 2 functional brain cells.

Q- What right do I have to ask these?
A- All the right in the world.

Q- Why don't you ask him yourself?
A- Because these are public acusations on several public forums. He or his supporters can answer them in public. A phone call won't answer them for future questioners. Also, if they are true he might eat me.

I have a problem with the jerks in the arts. I also have a problem with someone being falsely accused. So, I seek the truth.

 

[Bester]

Hi Bester,

Well, this has certainly stirred up a bit of a storm, hasn't it. Well, your questions have been taken up here and there in other forums and depending on who you listen to, the answer varies.

My dealings with Bram have all been on the up and up. It is VERY common knowledge that Kelly Worden is, to put it delicately, not an admirer of Bram. The stories, being what they are, may have elements of truth and elements of untruth. Well, the best thing to do is for you to meet him and ask him for yourself. He is very approachable and has all sorts of documentation regarding any questions you might like to ask. As I said, he has always been on the up and up with me, does not speak desparagingly of others, his students have the best manners of any group I have ever met, and he always credit Remy Presas as being his teacher and inspiration.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Mr. Anderson,
The answers may vary, but the truth doesn't. I just like to know what it is.

Mr. Evans,
Thank you for splitting this off. Again, my apologies for disjointing the other thread.

 

[DoxN4cer]

Mr. Anderson,
The answers may vary, but the truth doesn't. I just like to know what it is.

The truth? Since you obvously won't take anyone's word on MT, it seems you owe yourself a trip to Bravard NC. You can get the truth from not only Bram, but from Roland Dantes and Shishir Inocalla as well. Posing open ended questions that help to sling second hand mud here isn't going to cause any light to be shed on the subject. Perhaps you'll share your experiences of the camp with us on MT.

Another option would be for you to go to the Philippines and ask the SMs yourself. There will be a Remy Presas memorial event there in 2006. All of the SMs will be there, as well as Bram and many of his people. I don't see you doing that though. I predict that you will continue your present course of action; stirring the pot and perpetuating negativity toward people you don't even know.

Tim Kashino

 

[Guro Harold]

The truth? Since you obvously won't take anyone's word on MT, it seems you owe yourself a trip to Bravard NC. You can get the truth from not only Bram, but from Roland Dantes and Shishir Inocalla as well. Posing open ended questions that help to sling second hand mud here isn't going to cause any light to be shed on the subject. Perhaps you'll share your experiences of the camp with us on MT.

Another option would be for you to go to the Philippines and ask the SMs yourself. There will be a Remy Presas memorial event there in 2006. All of the SMs will be there, as well as Bram and many of his people. I don't see you doing that though. I predict that you will continue your present course of action; stirring the pot and perpetuating negativity toward people you don't even know.

Tim Kashino

If these claims are so outlandish and untrue, how come no one is saying so? Who is volunteering to vouch for Bram's character and integrity?

That's the difference that I see with SM Dan, at least he is laying the cards on the table for his friend and his dealings with him.

 

[Bester]

The truth? Since you obvously won't take anyone's word on MT, it seems you owe yourself a trip to Bravard NC. You can get the truth from not only Bram, but from Roland Dantes and Shishir Inocalla as well. Posing open ended questions that help to sling second hand mud here isn't going to cause any light to be shed on the subject. Perhaps you'll share your experiences of the camp with us on MT.

Take anyones word? Who has offered an answer that I can even consider accepting? No, what I got is arguement, claims of agendas (and from some who work the hardest secret agendas it seems.). Comments about mud, lies, etc.

But no answers.

So, Mr. Shadow, can you answer my questions? If so, please do so. If not, then, be quiet. It is you, not I that muddy this water more.

Another option would be for you to go to the Philippines and ask the SMs yourself. There will be a Remy Presas memorial event there in 2006. All of the SMs will be there, as well as Bram and many of his people. I don't see you doing that though. I predict that you will continue your present course of action; stirring the pot and perpetuating negativity toward people you don't even know.

Why would I do that? I don't study FMA. Does it make much sence for one to spend thousands of dollars to get answers to a few simple questions, which can more efficiently be answered here? I think not. Not all of us have the liberty of seeing the world on Uncle Sams dime.

Now, why are you so against my asking these questions?

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Bester-

The problem is that most of the people responding to your questions simply don't know the answers. Personally I think that it would be better to discuss this after this weekends event.


:asian:

 

[Bester]

Bester-

The problem is that most of the people responding to your questions simply don't know the answers. Personally I think that it would be better to discuss this after this weekends event.


:asian:

If they don't know the answers, then why are they seemingly so against my asking the questions? Seems odd to me.

But, in respect to Mr. Andersons event, I'll drop this until Monday. Better to focus on excellent training and fellowship for now.

We can pick this up next week.

 

[Tgace]

Personally, I have no stake in this debate. Dont know the man, dont own any of his products. However I do know and trust people who think Bram is an honorable man. As most of the bashers all seem to have martial arts programs, knife designs, seminar events and various other interests in competition with him, lets just say im highly skeptacle of the timing and motivations when old debates get ressurected like this....

Ive heard some controversial stuff about many people. However I also believe that the politics of the board the discussion is taking place on can be telling. Im fairly certain that Bram bashing wont be frowned upon too much on Wordens site. Mr. Worden has knives, knife programs and friends and associates that Bram is in competition with. Not saying that its a "plan" or intentional, just human nature. Not that the criticism is false or unwarranted, but there is always more behind these crusades than a "quest for truth". People dont get that worked up unless there is a hefty dose of self interest or competition involved.

Here? Well I have some theories but they are unsubstantiated and its possible its just for the fun of a hot topic to occupy our time.

 

[Datu Kelly S. Worden]

First off,,, I don't hide behind forum names, what I got to say I'll say honestly. I do not fabricate stories to create controversy, I have been in this industry and the knife industry longer than most reading this forum. My position as a radio host also offers insight and communication with legends in the arts, not interested in sacrificing my status by spelling any false statements. I am not looking for answers or communication with anyone, just offering a prospective of views that have been personally shared with me over the years. Those mentioned as reference information I consider credible, thus I will share their information as I see fit. I do not consider their personal opinions or experiences as mud-slinging, just information gathering. My personal business, products, or seminars survive well and I do not feel Bram or Dan are competitors or a threat to my success, give me a break....
Due to the weekend coming up, I to have the MARPPIO event, read if you choose but I will not be responding myself until next week. If someone specifically would like me to answer questions they will have to state their real name in writing, simple as that...
Respectfully, Kelly S. Worden


Originally Posted by Dan Anderson
Hi Bester,

Well, this has certainly stirred up a bit of a storm, hasn't it. Well, your questions have been taken up here and there in other forums and depending on who you listen to, the answer varies.

My dealings with Bram have all been on the up and up. It is VERY common knowledge that Kelly Worden is, to put it delicately, not an admirer of Bram. The stories, being what they are, may have elements of truth and elements of untruth. Well, the best thing to do is for you to meet him and ask him for yourself. He is very approachable and has all sorts of documentation regarding any questions you might like to ask. As I said, he has always been on the up and up with me, does not speak desparagingly of others, his students have the best manners of any group I have ever met, and he always credit Remy Presas as being his teacher and inspiration.

Yours,
Dan Anderson



Hello Martial talk Arnisadors..

Well as most of you know I stick to my own community and maintain a busy schedule. I wish I had time to spend answering everyone’s questions regarding Modern Arnis, politics, and life in general, bottom line it is not possible.



Since Dan Anderson seems to feel I am the root of all Bram’s political turmoil I will provide this brief history of how I became involved.



Years ago Bram began communicating with me and Jim Keating, purchasing our video tapes and other products. He purchased most of my videos and a Silent Fighter, reported back and forth about the value and how it improved his training regime. With Jim he purchased most all of Jim’s videos and even attended Jim’s Riddle of Steel camps, two I believe, Idaho and New York. Bram also purchased a great deal of Jim’s plastic knife trainers, much to Jim’s surprise, those soon became a product called Dragon Tooth knives made by Bram. According to Jim, Bram took total credit for the inception of that concept. In reference to video tapes, according to Jim, and others who have reviewed the production Bram copied his Knife Craft “3” volume video tape series and called it Blade Craft. All this is reported first hand by Jim Keating via the “On the Edge” radio show.



Questions regarding the origination of the Gunting knife are also covered there, the original concept was Jim Keating’s using the Jot Singh Kalsa knife Jot designed and Spyderco produced long before any Roundeye Excelerator or Spyderco Gunting model was introduced by Bram. An article was written and published in Tactical Knife prior to any designs Bram proposed to Bob Taylor of Roundeye Tool and Knife. Listen to that radio audio interview as well or better yet call Bob Taylor he has no problem discussing his first hand experiences. The article in question does exist and the concept of using a knife for a gunting and kinetic opening was the inception of Jim Keating. Bram later attended a seminar in New York and guess what, after a class Jim taught, Bram came to Jim’s hotel room to show him a drawing of his unique design? Jim actually had to be physically held back by his student Robert, as he was fairly upset at this personal violation of brotherly love ethics. Believe it or not, Jim is easily contacted as well.

People this effected: # 1. Jim Keating, # 2. Jot Singh Kalsa, # 3. Bob Taylor, # 4. Sal Glessor and Spyderco. Is the Gunting being produced now by Spyderco? No, is there a problem there? Seems to be.



I was personally handed Bram’s proposed Conceptual Modern Arnis book by Professor Remy A. Presas, he was pissed off. He told me to write the book, believe it or not.

I met Bram in Atlanta at the Blade Show for the first time later that year, but low and behold having never met Bram personally I was written into his book as if we were personal friends. “Kelly and I, Datu and I, me and Kelly, we are the Black Sheep of Modern Arnis” so on and so on,,, I had never met Bram Frank, I to felt violated, his inclusion of me in his book without my permission and as a Black Sheep was wrong. In Modern Arnis I stood alone and still do. This Black Sheep statement really pissed off Professor, he did not want public dissention in his art. He knew I was going to Atlanta and personally asked me to “Kick Bram’s ***.” Believe it or not…The day I met Bram, I had a long conversation with Bram at the Timberline booth that disrupted the flow of Timberline professionalism. The basis was “Professor does not want his name in this book, he does not want to be tied to Dan Inosanto as a conceptual teacher and quite a bit more. I also clarified that I personally did not want to be included in his book as a Black Sheep of Modern Arnis. Bram’s reply was to ignore Professor’s personal concerns, doubt me, call Randi Shea or Datu David Hoffman, Willy Matias and others within the Board of Directors.



Was Professor upset with Datu Shishir for promoting Bram without consulting Professor himself? Yes he was.



Is there a document on IMAF letterhead Dated October 15th 1996 dismissing Bram from active Modern Arnis participation or representation of IMAF? Yes, seen it, have it, clarified it’s existence as authentic in personal discussions with Randi Shea, David Hoffman, Willy Matias.



Did Joe Lewis have a personal run in with Bram at a Black Tie event and a knife was involved? Ask Joe himself, he is easily communicated with.



Are there other questionable issues surrounding Bram, Modern Arnis, the Gunting knife design, and personal politics, probably. Am I going to waste my time addressing all the problems or directly concerning myself with Bram or Dan? I don’t have the time or desire, if Dan wants to point a finger at someone, point it at everyone listed and do more research himself to find out how others feel about all this crap. I got involved because Bram chose to get involved with many of these people I consider personal friends. Much of this was brought out into the public via public information on and through the A.M. KLAY Radio show “ON THE EDGE.”



In reference to Dan’s statement of Bram’s endorsement from Datu Shishir, Roland Dantes, or the Senior Masters of the Philippines, well, no disrespect to them but I am curious, do these endorsements somehow invalidate the issues of the past?



Has Bram been invited to disperse all proposed false claims of others by “Going Public on the same Radio Show? Yes he has, and the offer still stands today. He has reported that he felt he would not get a honest opportunity to “Tell his side of the story.” Well it is real hard for me as a radio host to not allow that, it would be real evident if I was to edit any thing he steps forward to clarify. Both Bram and Dan are more than welcome to stand tall and make their side of any story public, “ON THE EDGE!” Dan is coming to Tacoma for a Karate tournament in the very near future, August 2005 I believe, he is teaching a point karate seminar. How about that weekend?

Got personal concerns about my statements, the door is always open.

My office # is 253-564-2867



Respectfully Datu Kelly S. Worden

 

[Tgace]

Are there any lawsuits or copyright cases open over this?

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Datu Kelly, Welcome to MT!