question on Olympic versus Tradition

[terryl965]

My question to all you TKD'er if Olympic TKD is consider the best that Korea has to offer, why does Traditional schools have better all rounded fighters and are more apt to do better at the teaching of TKD. Please let keep the forum to this question and not mine is better than yours. I have been in TKD for over 25 years and seen all type of tournaments and to me Traditional Old School or however you would like to say it is better rounded for the masses, it can be used outside the sport aspect in my opion. Please answer with some serious decussion on this subject.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Because Olympic Tae Kwon Do focuses on one aspect of training-free fighting. All other area are considered secondary or unimportant.
Traditional Tae Kwon Do focuses on the whole package-sparring, forms, basics, self defense, philosophy, etiquette, and manners. It is much better for your body and mind. It does a much better job of developing true power (as opposed to point power) and internal Ki energy.
Olympic Tae Kwon Do is a sport, pure and simple. It is an athletic activity. It uses Western concepts (competition, good sportsmanship) to achieve a tangible goal (winning points and then a match). It also has a limited window of activity. You will not be competing in Olympic TKD as a 50 year old. You will not be fast or agile enough because Olympic TKD is bad for the body and breaks it down eventually. As a result, there must be a continuous pool of new and young competitors.
Traditional Tae Kwon Do is a martial art based on Oriental ideas of philosophy, training, and culture. It is good for your whole body, mind, and spirit because it builds them up through proper training and Ki development. It is entirely possible to practice TKD way past the age many people have given up Western sports due to age or injury.
You may be too old or slow for Olympic TKD, but never for traditional TKD.

 

[TigerWoman]

It is entirely possible to practice TKD way past the age many people have given up Western sports due to age or injury.
You may be too old or slow for Olympic TKD, but never for traditional TKD.

I was just talking yesterday with the master about his 80/20 mix of traditional-poomse, self-defense, sparring combinations, etc. mixed with athletic conditioning. I go from one injury to the next so don't see a lot of longevity in this. But with no goal, what does a 50 yr. old work on if you are goal-oriented and motivated that way? I'm getting stiffer and stiffer with overuse of joints. There's teaching but you still have to be able to show that jump spin heel. As we get older we need exercise...just don't see it this way past 60. Actually I don't know any other 50 yr. olds around either.

But up to this age, I think traditional is the "way" and gives more to the individual all around, physically and mentally. All 18-30 yr. olds can't be the elite of tournament competition. So they are left out or always 2nd or 3rd place and a short "career". Can they go back then to traditional? TW

 

[Miles]

I agree with MichiganTKD to a point. What you see in an Olympic TKD event is one type of sparring. That's it.

Taekwondo (whether you want to call it "traditional" or not) encompasses Olympic sparring (macho kyorugi) and much more. Certainly some folks think that when they've seen Olympic sparring, they've seen the entire art. Sorry, they have not. They've seen an important part, but just a part. They haven't even seen the entire spectrum of kyorugi since there is no division for one-step (han bon kyorugi) sparring, three-step (sam bon kyorugi), etc. in the Olympics.

If a school concentrates solely on macho kyorugi, that's fine. If a school concentrates solely on poomsae, that's fine. If a school concentrates solely on hoshinsul/self-defense, that's fine. However, none of these are in keeping with what the Kukkiwon desires. It is doing a disservice to its students to teach less than the entire spectrum of the art.

Miles

 

[MichiganTKD]

And one reason why you see Olympic-style schools much more frequently than traditional schools is because sport schools focus on winning medals, trophies, and other tangible physical signs of success. Americans understand medals. We think if a school has a bunch of medals and trophies in the window it must be good.
Traditional schools focus on things that cannot be measured and do not fit into a display window: Strong technique, good philosophy, character, integrity, manners, etiquette. Not only can you not put them into a window for passersby to admire, they take time to develop. You measure a traditional school by what kind of students you produce ten years down the road. How are their grades? Do they have good philosophy or do they want trouble? What kind of job do they have? How is their home life? What kind of students do they produce if they are teaching?
Unfortunately, Americans often don't have patience for these things. We want immediate gratification (medals, trophies, patches etc), because it makes us feel we have accomplished something.

 

[Zepp]

Terry, I think you answered your own question with this one. The more traditional Tae Kwon Do schools, generally speaking, have a broader focus than just competition, are more accessible to people at older ages or with disabilities, and produce more well-rounded martial artists.

For an example, I'll use an anecdote about a black belt I used to train with at my old school. He's a big guy, about 6'3", maybe 6'4", and has strength to match his size. He also has flexibility problems. He started training at an older age than many people, and for some odd reason having to do with his physical make-up, he just will probably never be as flexible as most people with the same amount of experience. The highest he can kick is the height of his own waist. Spinning and jumping kicks are harder for him than most people. But that didn't stop him from earning his black belt. He clearly demonstrated his ability to defend himself, and despite his own diffilculty performing some techniques, he's still capable of coaching lower belts in them. As far as our grandmaster was concerned, he met all the requirements for black belt that actually mattered.

Now, imagine the same guy in a class that focused heavily on Olympic competition. He'd get clobbered. He'd probably never be granted rank above some middle colored belt in such a class. He would be held back for not being able to compete well under restrictive rules. Doesn't that sound like a disservice?

(I realize that I am generalizing with regard to "non-traditional" schools.)

 

[terryl965]

So far I have enjoyed those responses and totally agree with everyone. now if Olympic style is propular with the masses how can tradition hang on with no-one remaining to teach after all us old timers are gone.

 

[FearlessFreep]

now if Olympic style is propular with the masses how can tradition hang on with no-one remaining to teach after all us old timers are gone.

My instructor is in his late-20s and teaches I guess what you term as "traditional"

One experiment I'm working on for the next few years or so is to try to be good at sparring while training for self-defense/fighting. What I mean by that is that, to my understanding, TKD encompasses conditioning and technique training to develop fast and powerful strikes, so in sparring I will try to use good TKD technique to strike hard, for penetration. Since, as someone else pointed out, deep strikes take more energy, I need to work hard to be in good condition and have strong legs and lungs to be doing hard strikes for the length of a match. In sparring there seems to be more of a willingness to trade hits; bad idea when defending yourself. So I want to use better footwork for evasion and handwork for blocking in order to not get hit as much. In any situation, staying calm and reacting fast to your opponent is important. Sparring uses a lot of things in terms of feints and checks that I will probably never be as good at as those who practice sparring more than me. One thing I notice though is that if I react to a feint I often get myself off balance, which is a bad idea in any situation, whether sparring or defending (although I don't think too many people in fights spend a lot of time feinting, using it as a way of working on balance and footwork is probably good)

As my instructor has pointed out, what you train most in will come out when under stress. I want to train for the full fighting art, for TKD as self-defense. I don't want practicing in sparring to make me do something stupid if I ever have to defend myself. I just don't want to suck when I spar, either. I'm trying to use sparring not as a goal but as a specific part of training in a larger scope of TKD

 

[crysis]

is ATA olympic or traditional? im a newb

 

[MichiganTKD]

So far I have enjoyed those responses and totally agree with everyone. now if Olympic style is propular with the masses how can tradition hang on with no-one remaining to teach after all us old timers are gone.

It will become harder and harder as the pool of qualified instructors becomes smaller. Keep in mind, the generation coming from Korea to teach here has all been schooled and familiarized with Olympic Tae Kwon Do. I think as time goes on, you're going to see a fragmentation of the WTF as traditional schools decide to dissociate themselves with it. Dr. Kim was the force behind the Olympic movement. With him out of the picture, and with Mr. Uhm up there in years and probably close to retirement, the WTF might very well fragment as noone is strong enough to assert power to keep it together. For now anyway. Someone might come along later to change things.

 

[American HKD]

Greetings

1. Why is sport TKD seen as more important to the trad version 98% of all TKD praticioners DON"T train for the olympics.

2. Is the WTF or Kukkiwon Dans certs seen as more important thna the Trad Kwan Dan cert.

 

[bignick]

I think the second quote in my signature sums up my feelings...

 

[Miles]

is ATA olympic or traditional? im a newb

Welcome to MT!

ATA is not Olympic style. We've been discussing whether TKD itself can be considered "traditional" with varying ideas.

Miles

 

[Miles]

Greetings

1. Why is sport TKD seen as more important to the trad version 98% of all TKD praticioners DON"T train for the olympics.

2. Is the WTF or Kukkiwon Dans certs seen as more important thna the Trad Kwan Dan cert.

Hi Stuart!

1. Sport TKD gets more publicity. That's all. It is clearly (by the responses received in this forum) not seen as more important that any other aspect of TKD.

2. Essentially the Kukkiwon came about when the Kwans got together. It is the "central dojang", if you will. Kwans still exist, but the "official" dan is that from Kukkiwon (for those who train in Kukki-TKD, don't wish to slight any who have trained in other "styles" if you will). Kukkiwon does not recognize Kwan rank (though many folks hold both). Kukkiwon rank is recognized thoughout the world.

Miles

 

[Spookey]

Kukkiwon rank is recognized thoughout the world.

Yes, Kukkiwon Certification does have international recognition. However, a certificate from someone who has never seen the ability of the applicant does not seem to carry much weight to me!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[Jim Tindell]

Olympians do not punch. I do. That's the difference.

 

[Miles]

However, a certificate from someone who has never seen the ability of the applicant does not seem to carry much weight to me!

Spookey, are you licensed to drive a car?

If so, were you personally tested by your State/Commonwealth's Secretary of State? If not, does it mean you think your license to drive is invalid?

More likely, you were tested to drive by his/her designated appointee. It's the same with Kukkiwon certification. I assume it was also the same with ITF certification when Gen. Choi was alive.

Now play nice!

Miles

 

[MichiganTKD]

I have not personally tested at the Kukkiwon. However, our Instructor has and some of his senior students have. This means his/their technique carries the Kukkiwon authorization of approval. It also authorizes them to carry out tests, which they do, in accordance with Kukkiwon standards. In essence, they are Kukkiwon representatives because they are certified by the Kukkiwon and have tested in accordance with Kukkiwon rules and policy.
It also means that I am authorized to organize tests in accordance with the rules and policies of the Kukkiwon because I am certified through them, and students' paperwork goes through them.

 

[terryl965]

I think the second quote in my signature sums up my feelings...

Big Nick very well put My sentiments as well.

 

[Spookey]

Dear Sir,

My point is reciprical...(ITF and WTF)...Either organization will grant a certificate up to the 3rd Degree based souly in the certification of the opposite organization!

Now, if you move to the US from another country will they not require the "Driving Test"?

I was being nice (and fair)!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY