Pyung Ahn Sam Dan - Videos

[Makalakumu]

This thread is dedicated to Pyung Ahn Sam Dan Hyung. I would like to discuss applications of this form, its origins, and its other varients. Take a look at the video and lets pick it apart.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Flying Crane]

Your gi makes sound effects worthy of Kung Fu Theater!

sorry, i'm not trying to be mean, i just couldn't resist.

 

[Makalakumu]

I bought a heavy weight gi because they sound really cool when doing forms. I also like the fact that I can grapple in it.

This form is really cool. There are lots of throws and arm bars throughout the the entire thing. I like the first sequence of moves. I'll be posting a short video of their application in a few days.

The last sequence is fun also. I really like the shoulder throw application.

 

[Makalakumu]

This is the closing move in the form. What applications do you see?

 

[Makalakumu]

This is one possible Ill Soo Shik (one step). What do you think? There are two views for this technique.

 

[Bertrand]

It is interesting how you perform this hyung. You do it closer to how my master teachs it. In the begining of the form, I saw other masters doing it more like a Ahnuso Paku Ro Mahk Ki with the feet togather. The accent is done on the arm going up. like in this video :

http://www.natkd.com/movies/Forms/Pyong_An_Forms/pyungahn3.wmv

The way I am teached is more like a punch toward the opponent's groin simultanously with the block. The accent is more on the arm going down.
Like you did.

Also I have a hard time seeing if after the spear hand you do a horizontally hammer fsit or a back fist. Can you tell me?

Thank you.

PS. English is not my mother langage.. sorry for my poor syntax

 

[Makalakumu]

It is interesting how you perform this hyung. You do it closer to how my master teachs it. In the begining of the form, I saw other masters doing it more like a Ahnuso Paku Ro Mahk Ki with the feet togather. The accent is done on the arm going up. like in this video :

http://www.natkd.com/movies/Forms/Pyong_An_Forms/pyungahn3.wmv

In my lineage, the way I performed it is how I was taught. Doing like Master Mac is also perfectly legit. It will change some applications, however.

The way I am teached is more like a punch toward the opponent's groin simultanously with the block. The accent is more on the arm going down. Like you did.

I really like this way, because that strike is a great set up to some cool applications.

Also I have a hard time seeing if after the spear hand you do a horizontally hammer fsit or a back fist. Can you tell me?

It comes out as a "hammerfist" but the application of that move is a throw. O Goshi and Seonage both fit that movement.

 

[Chizikunbo]

Thats very nice bunsok John...

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

The closing two moves are throws. Basicly, these are hip throws. I know that be hard to envision given the stylized way the form is performed today....but that is what the moves are supposed to be. This stuff about it being a punch to the body and head is nonsense. Those closed fist positions are not punches. They are grabs. The throw occurs when you move the arms across the body...and when the arms are returning to Choon Bi at the end. The legs should also straighten when you move the arms across the body (this is because you use your legs to left someone in a shoulder or hip throw). Unfortunately, the form has become so stylized now....it makes it almost impossible to see this movement, which for many schools...has actually disappeared from the pattern altogether. Also....the stance for this movement is not the horse stance, but rather more like the Choon Bi stance. Again....modern stylized performance has rendered this invisible to point that today many people step into deep horse stances. You can do a hip/shoulder throw from a horse stance....but that would be doing it the HARD WAY.

The Emperor

 

[Makalakumu]

The last two moves are throws and the older versions actually contain the correct mechanics to perform the techniques. I think these moves were changed when the Pinans were transported to Japan because they didn't want karate to compete with judo.

 

[JasonASmith]

Ummm, with a few exceptions, that looks EXACTLY like Heian Sandan, which I have just learned...
Interesting...
I like the throwing application, as well...
Take care, and keep up the good work..

 

[crushing]

Sir, It looks to be very well done to me.

How do you explain the application of the kicks from the side-stance? What is your target and do you see the result of the kick lead in to the application of the shoulder move and back fist?

I hadn't considered the last moves or the hammerfist to be throws before. It does give quite a different perspective.

 

[Makalakumu]

How do you explain the application of the kicks from the side-stance? What is your target and do you see the result of the kick lead in to the application of the shoulder move and back fist?

There are alot of interpretations for this move. The horse stance is very stylized which hides alot of stuff. The kick can be interpreted in a number of ways. I've seen sequences where it was a foot stomp, elbow, guillotine choke combination (with the backfist motion actually being the motion used to wrap around the neck). I've seen the kick performed at knee level in response to a punch where the kick caused the uke to overextend and leave himself open for an armbar. And then I've seen the kick used as a clearing motion, which turned into the stomp/elbow/guillotine combination. In any case, the fist is always a grab of some kind if the elbow is interpreted as an elbow. If the elbow is interpreted as a parry, then the backfist becomes a strike. I've even seen the elbow/backfist as a transition from one armbar to another.

I hope this helps...

I hadn't considered the last moves or the hammerfist to be throws before. It does give quite a different perspective.

If you look at the footwork, the whole thing is set up nicely. Another option you may want to consider is the prospect that the hammerfist may be just another form of shihonage (four corners throw from aikido).

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Ummm, with a few exceptions, that looks EXACTLY like Heian Sandan

Where do you think Heian Sandan came from?

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

The kicking movement in Pyong Ahn Samdan are actually simple sweeping throws. Because of modern stylized performance, this is not easily seen. This is due to the choppy nature of performance these days. The set of movements were meant to be flowing...and the little move with your elbow is actually reaching for the crotch. Once the opponent goes to defend, you swing the arm up (the so called backfist move) to catch him high and push him off his center of gravity while you kick his legs out from under him (the so called crescent kicks). Itosu was being cute when he reversed the performance order of the movements, effectively hiding the actual martial application.

So....to give a clear picture. You don't kick then do the the elbow move and backfist....you do just the opposite, reach into the crotch, swing the fist up to chin or throat, kick the legs out.

THe Emperor

 

[crushing]

Thank you.

We don't do the kicks nearly as high, it's at the knee and and I understood as we do it that the shoulder creates the space and puts uke in a position to use the backfist as a strike. I thought I had a somewhat decent idea of the moves, but now I have a few application questions for my teacher.

I'm in TKD, so I hope I'm not out of line in this discussion in a TSD forum.

 

[crushing]

The kicking movement in Pyong Ahn Samdan are actually simple sweeping throws. Because of modern stylized performance, this is not easily seen. This is due to the choppy nature of performance these days. The set of movements were meant to be flowing...and the little move with your elbow is actually reaching for the crotch. Once the opponent goes to defend, you swing the arm up (the so called backfist move) to catch him high and push him off his center of gravity while you kick his legs out from under him (the so called crescent kicks). Itosu was being cute when he reversed the performance order of the movements, effectively hiding the actual martial application.

So....to give a clear picture. You don't kick then do the the elbow move and backfist....you do just the opposite, reach into the crotch, swing the fist up to chin or throat, kick the legs out.

THe Emperor

I would love to see these forms as you describe they once were. Do you know if there are videos available on the internet being executed in that manner? Thanks!

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Well....anyone that know the technique can show it...but seeing as how the form was radically changed long before even film was being applied to record martial artists in Okinawa....you just won't find film on it. Maybe you can practice this...and then you can make a video!

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]