Pyung Ahn O Dan

[Lynne]

Pyung Ahn O Dan is not as terrifying as I thought it would be. I've got it down fairly well from two classes. I still have to think during the last half of it. I get three months to learn it well.

I would like to know what I'm doing however. Can someone help me out with what the moves are for?

1) After opening with the side block and reverse punch, what is the chambering for? It looks almost like you are reaching out and grabbing someone, then bringing them in close for a kick. But there is no kick to follow. Is this "chambering" preparation for the next side block?

2) After the high double fist block (Sangdon Sang Soo Makee), you rotate your palms and slap your knee with the bottom rotated hand. Why? I assume the high double fist block is to catch a kick and maybe the rotation is to grab onto the opponent's leg and break his leg against your knee???

3) Is the jump, jumping over people? Do you jump high or wide? Which is correct?

4) The "crazy" twist where you end up on the blade edge of your feet (hint: don't try this on carpet unless you have really strong knees) with a double inside/outside block. Obviously your are bopping two people with your blocks, but what is the twist for? Wouldn't it be easier to jump 180? By the way, it's going to take some practice for me to not fall over with that twist. I think I found a way to make it easier - pivot more on my left foot...I think.

5) Is there an arm preparation for the groin strike/side palm strike move? If I'm not doing the right preparation, it may be corrected in class but not necessarily in the next two months. I brought the groin striking hand back a bit so I could use momentum and force. For the side palm strike, I moved my hand to the opposite side so I could get momentum also. I have a DVD but it's not really clear what Master R is doing as far as preparation. The school DVD's are more helpful when you know what you are doing if that makes sense.

Any help or tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Lynne

 

[JWLuiza]

Pyung Ahn O Dan is not as terrifying as I thought it would be. I've got it down fairly well from two classes. I still have to think during the last half of it. I get three months to learn it well.

No, you get three months to learn it well enough for your next test. You have a lifetime to keep making it better

I would like to know what I'm doing however. Can someone help me out with what the moves are for?

1) After opening with the side block and reverse punch, what is the chambering for? It looks almost like you are reaching out and grabbing someone, then bringing them in close for a kick. But there is no kick to follow. Is this "chambering" preparation for the next side block?

No one honestly knows. I interpret it as an arm bar or wrist throw. The side block, IMHO would return to the hip grabbing something, probably an arm.

2) After the high double fist block (Sangdon Sang Soo Makee), you rotate your palms and slap your knee with the bottom rotated hand. Why? I assume the high double fist block is to catch a kick and maybe the rotation is to grab onto the opponent's leg and break his leg against your knee???

Good to see you are thinking about this! I interpret the sequence as a response to a common attack when this hyung was created. A front kick followed by a punch or two... So the low cross block either checks the opponent before they can kick, or blocks the kick. The high cross blocks are defenses against the hand techniques coming in. AGAIN: GRAB something. Bring that arm down and attack it with the knee (we actually don't do the knee in our version) then when they are brought down to your size, you have a great opportunity to punch the temple.

3) Is the jump, jumping over people? Do you jump high or wide? Which is correct?

No, generally, if you are jumping, that means you just tossed your opponent. It is a symbol for what actually happens, not what really happens. The move before is a set up for a hip or shoulder throw.

But jump as awesomely as you can. High and wide. Or whatever your teacher says.

4) The "crazy" twist where you end up on the blade edge of your feet (hint: don't try this on carpet unless you have really strong knees) with a double inside/outside block. Obviously your are bopping two people with your blocks,

No, it isn't obvious you are attacking two people. I would hazard to say there are very few kata that have moves specifically for dealing with two people (or more). You are probably breaking/throwing your one opponent.

but what is the twist for? Wouldn't it be easier to jump 180? By the way, it's going to take some practice for me to not fall over with that twist. I think I found a way to make it easier - pivot more on my left foot...I think.

You don't jump because the application calls for body twisting.

5) Is there an arm preparation for the groin strike/side palm strike move? If I'm not doing the right preparation, it may be corrected in class but not necessarily in the next two months. I brought the groin striking hand back a bit so I could use momentum and force. For the side palm strike, I moved my hand to the opposite side so I could get momentum also. I have a DVD but it's not really clear what Master R is doing as far as preparation. The school DVD's are more helpful when you know what you are doing if that makes sense.

In my school everything comes from the hips if possible. We have a slight variation on your description of it, but both hands start from the hip.

 

[Makalakumu]

Pyung Ahn O Dan is not as terrifying as I thought it would be. I've got it down fairly well from two classes. I still have to think during the last half of it. I get three months to learn it well.

I would like to know what I'm doing however. Can someone help me out with what the moves are for?

1) After opening with the side block and reverse punch, what is the chambering for? It looks almost like you are reaching out and grabbing someone, then bringing them in close for a kick. But there is no kick to follow. Is this "chambering" preparation for the next side block?

2) After the high double fist block (Sangdon Sang Soo Makee), you rotate your palms and slap your knee with the bottom rotated hand. Why? I assume the high double fist block is to catch a kick and maybe the rotation is to grab onto the opponent's leg and break his leg against your knee???

3) Is the jump, jumping over people? Do you jump high or wide? Which is correct?

4) The "crazy" twist where you end up on the blade edge of your feet (hint: don't try this on carpet unless you have really strong knees) with a double inside/outside block. Obviously your are bopping two people with your blocks, but what is the twist for? Wouldn't it be easier to jump 180? By the way, it's going to take some practice for me to not fall over with that twist. I think I found a way to make it easier - pivot more on my left foot...I think.

5) Is there an arm preparation for the groin strike/side palm strike move? If I'm not doing the right preparation, it may be corrected in class but not necessarily in the next two months. I brought the groin striking hand back a bit so I could use momentum and force. For the side palm strike, I moved my hand to the opposite side so I could get momentum also. I have a DVD but it's not really clear what Master R is doing as far as preparation. The school DVD's are more helpful when you know what you are doing if that makes sense.

Any help or tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Lynne

1. You are grabbing a limb or the head and breaking the joint.
2. You are breaking someone's face against your knee. The move is a grab of the collar and a pull down. You could also be blocking a high strike and pulling them into a knee strike.
3. The "jump" is absent most other versions of the kata. I see it as jumping on someone after you have thrown them. This move also indicates about three different joint locks you could apply to someone in a prone position.
4. The footwork is for a locking or throwing motion. Very hard to describe. You have to see it.
5. Again, its very hard to see. The arm sweeps down in the clockwise direction which could be a block and then and stops the motion palm down which could be another block.

 

[Lynne]

No, you get three months to learn it well enough for your next test. You have a lifetime to keep making it better

No one honestly knows. I interpret it as an arm bar or wrist throw. The side block, IMHO would return to the hip grabbing something, probably an arm.


Good to see you are thinking about this! I interpret the sequence as a response to a common attack when this hyung was created. A front kick followed by a punch or two... So the low cross block either checks the opponent before they can kick, or blocks the kick. The high cross blocks are defenses against the hand techniques coming in. AGAIN: GRAB something. Bring that arm down and attack it with the knee (we actually don't do the knee in our version) then when they are brought down to your size, you have a great opportunity to punch the temple.

No, generally, if you are jumping, that means you just tossed your opponent. It is a symbol for what actually happens, not what really happens. The move before is a set up for a hip or shoulder throw.

But jump as awesomely as you can. High and wide. Or whatever your teacher says.
No, it isn't obvious you are attacking two people. I would hazard to say there are very few kata that have moves specifically for dealing with two people (or more). You are probably breaking/throwing your one opponent.

You don't jump because the application calls for body twisting.

In my school everything comes from the hips if possible. We have a slight variation on your description of it, but both hands start from the hip.

Bingo on learning the form well enough to test and spending many a year on it

I am thinking and my brain hurts.

We do our preparations from the hips, too - lots of twisting with knees up and in defensive or offensive posture and hands placed so at the hips. Hmmm. I could see the hands in a triangle. Maybe I'll have the opportunity to ask tonight - if there is time for questions.

 

[Lynne]

1. You are grabbing a limb or the head and breaking the joint.
2. You are breaking someone's face against your knee. The move is a grab of the collar and a pull down. You could also be blocking a high strike and pulling them into a knee strike.
3. The "jump" is absent most other versions of the kata. I see it as jumping on someone after you have thrown them. This move also indicates about three different joint locks you could apply to someone in a prone position.
4. The footwork is for a locking or throwing motion. Very hard to describe. You have to see it.
5. Again, its very hard to see. The arm sweeps down in the clockwise direction which could be a block and then and stops the motion palm down which could be another block.

Thank you.

So, grabbing the head. I saw that the moves had snap and thought it had to be more than chambering/preparation. In Pyung Ahn Sa Dan I made the initial mistake of elbow striking in the cat stance before the next side kick, not realizing that was a preparation only - scanning for enemies. Some people still perform that move as an elbow strike. Not cool when testing for IL Gup or Cho Dan (in ATA).

#2 is blocks against punches and then breaking a face against the knee. Gotcha.

#3 - what kind of joint locks could you apply? In our form, we land in a Hadon Sang Soo Makee with ankles crossed.

#4 - interesting - would love to see how that works.

 

[astrobiologist]

JWLuiza is spot on... You may have an idea of the sequence of moves in a few classes, you may be able to present enough of that form in three months to show you know the pattern well enough for your instructor, but it may take better than a lifetime to truly Master the form, or anything for that matter. I've known Pyung Ahn Oh Dan for about 18 years and I'm still figuring it out...

First and foremost remember that there are several ways to interpret movements within the forms. One person may have a different application than another person; one school will most likely teach a little different than another.

Remember, these forms, Pyung Ahn Hyung as we call them, were created by Anko Itosu, an Okinawan, and he named them the Pinan Kata. The applications as originally intended by Master Itosu were most probably lost when Master Gichin Funikoshi took the forms to Japan and developed Shotokan. The Heian Kata, as they are in Japanese, were taught to the Koreans during the occupation and along the way were watered down and changed even more. These forms were adopted as the Pyung Ahn Hyung in TSD and were chopped apart and added to for many of the TKD forms.

The Pyung Ahn Hyung have a lot to offer... And I mean a lot! I've really only begun learning applications myself. Having Master Jay S. Penfil as an instructor and having attended a seminar with Master Iain Abernethy has taught me a lot.

To your questions...
1) I've heard a lot about this "chambering" in my time. Ya, you can chamber a punch or prepare for a movement, but, generally, in a fight at close range, which is where the forms are applicable, you would not want to waste your time bringing a hand to your side if there's nothing in it or if it's not immediately giving you a combative advantage. That first "chambering" movement in Pyung Ahn Oh Dan may be a wrist or neck crank, but also allows for an elbow lock.

2) I've never slapped my knee with my hand in this movement. That's a difference of teaching. Like I said, school to school, you can find a lot of differences. I was taught to use the right foot to tap the left leg as a kid, but now I slide the right foot up beside the left and then step forward. The tap of the right foot or the slap of the knee may have been symbolic of a kick to the opponent. I slide my foot up to a perfect position for a kick should I choose.

3) I can't stand the idea that you are jumping over people in the forms. Why would you jump over an opponent? They could roll over and catch your leg, causing your body to slam to the ground. I agree with maunakumu, a jump in a form most likely symbolizes a throw. In the case of this jump in Pyung Ahn Oh Dan, check out http://iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan5.asp. Master Iain Abernthy, a Wado Ryu 5th dan, shows in this article how that jump could really be a hip throw (or the cross-buttocks throw) followed by a kneeling shoulder lock (think of the squatting low double fist block).
-now, granted, you may in some instances wish to jump away from or towards an opponent, but jumping over someone is just silly if you're not immediately dropping a weapon into them...

4) I've not yet learned a good application for the turn here. I'd very much like to find a good one if anyone can help with that. I'm thinking of a defense against a choke or a bear-hug maybe, but I haven't got one down. But, I agree, chances are that you will not be double striking two opponents like this.

5) I like maunakumu's explaination here, pretty much what I'm doing as well...

One note: "I brought the groin striking hand back a bit so I could use momentum and force"... you will find at some point in your training, that you really don't need to pull your hand back and cock it to get momentum and force. The other day, I notice while working a lead backfist - cross punch - front kick combo that my students were pulling the lead hand back before throwing the backfist. I told them, if they were in a street encounter the time they spent cocking that fist back may be their downfall. The cocking back motion is called telegraphing, and it allows for a good fighter to defend your strike pretty easily.

Another Note: "I have a DVD but it's not really clear what Master R is doing as far as preparation. The school DVD's are more helpful when you know what you are doing if that makes sense"... Having a DVD will surely help and I'm glad your instructor does this for hers/his students (not sure if Master R is female or male). Remember to ask your instructor what their interpretation(s) and suggestions are.

Lastly, have fun learning and don't feel too pressured to "get it all down"... That just won't happen so easily. Good luck with your training!

 

[Imua Kuntao]

The slapping of the knee part is a stick/club disarm that uses the knee to knock the club/stick out of the hand of the attacker. I am surprised your teacher hasn't explained all the movements to you. You are all very close to answers, just keep practicing the kata/hyung and you will discover for yourself, it may take some time. Yes the jump and twist is a throw and the knuckles to the ground is the follow up choke.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Hrm...apparently yinz all do this form differently than ITF...

1) What maunakumu said, and this is something everyone at my school learns when learning the form. Grab the head and snap the neck.

2) That move for us is a high x-block (open-handed). Then, the hands rotate and are brought back to the right hips as the left knee comes up. Chop with the left hand, step down and punch.

So you're deflecting and grabbing an attack coming down on you. The knee coming up can be thought of as a knee attack, while the left hand chops to the neck. Dunno whence the difference, but differences happen.

3) Yup, you're jumping over someone and coming down on top of them. The fists crossed and punched down can probably be interpreted as a grab...extrapolate from there what you wanna do to the person.

4) Crazy twist? Oh...that. So, you wanna imagine that someone's grabbed you from behind. You duck down, forcing them slightly off balance, giving you room to pivot, and break free. There are probably any number of other interpretations, but that's the one we're taught.

Just practice control. Cross, then pivot on your feet, then snap open.

5) Both hands to back hip, then step into a deep front stance (turn all the way around...it's easy to make your front stance too narrow). Spearing arm thrusts out as you step down, powered by your waist, which makes your shoulders turn into the attack. Other hand comes up to shoulder, palm facing head. Pivot into hugul jase while bringing spearing hand over your head and bringing other hand down into "low block" position.

The interpretation we're always given is a rather rude one...one you wouldn't want to inflict on any guy.


Good luck! Tang Soo!

 

[Makalakumu]

Thank you.

You are welcome!

#2 is blocks against punches and then breaking a face against the knee. Gotcha.

Yes and no. Try not to get to attached to one explanation or the other. this move could be a lot of things.

#3 - what kind of joint locks could you apply? In our form, we land in a Hadon Sang Soo Makee with ankles crossed.

A variety of collar chokes, arm bars, or leg locks. It all depends on what presents itself. I see this move as a throw and then you break something on the other guy. Very Judo!

One note about the jump. Itosu Sensei created these forms so that every move had three aspects.

1. Self Defense Application
2. A teaching Principle.
3. Physical fitness.

The jump has been over emphasized in order to win style points at tournaments. In more self defense orientated styles, this is what the "jump" looks like.

This is a clip of Miyahira Katsuya performing Pinan Godan. Miyahira Sensei was a student of Chibana Chosin who was the last living student of Itosu Yasutsune. This is about as close as you can get to learning this form from the man who created them.

Note the absense of many of the moves that many posters are puzzled by...

#4 - interesting - would love to see how that works.

Here is one thought. My student and I were just playing around and we made a video of what this move could be. The thing to remember is that the transition movements are just as instructive as the end movements.

 

[rafael.ohalloran]

4) The "crazy" twist where you end up on the blade edge of your feet (hint: don't try this on carpet unless you have really strong knees) with a double inside/outside block. Obviously your are bopping two people with your blocks, but what is the twist for? Wouldn't it be easier to jump 180? By the way, it's going to take some practice for me to not fall over with that twist. I think I found a way to make it easier - pivot more on my left foot...I think.

I never liked the two simultaneous attacker explanations. I just seems so unlikely that 2 people will attack you in that specific way where such a block would work.

My favorite application of that move is a leg catch followed by throw/takedown. Remember in the previous move you have your left hand in a lw block position. Imagine you've just blocked a (say) left front kick. Scoop your left arm under the attackers left leg and pivot or step (whatever you need to do to cover the distance) as you raise your left hand into the 'blocking" position dumping the person onto the ground.

Now the question is, "what is the right hand doing?" The explanation I've seen involves the right hand moving down into a "low block position" which is actually a strike to the midsection to help know the person down. You won't be in exactly the same position as the form but then again in form applications you never are.

This satisfied me when I tried it with a partner. Give it a try and let me know what you think.
-rafael

 

[Montecarlodrag]

2) After the high double fist block (Sangdon Sang Soo Makee), you rotate your palms and slap your knee with the bottom rotated hand. Why? I assume the high double fist block is to catch a kick and maybe the rotation is to grab onto the opponent's leg and break his leg against your knee???

Interesting... We do a high front kick instead of knee. We use knee when the hyung is about to finish (after a Choon kuk Sang Soo)
(for Us) the palms rotation is for grabbing and pulling, then kicking and punching in rapid succesion.

3) Is the jump, jumping over people? Do you jump high or wide? Which is correct?

Both. You need to find the right distance to jump to front and the right height. This is because the hyung has a point of origin and a point of end. If you do this movement with too much distance you will the hyung end at the wrong spot. Remember the hyungs are shaped line an "I" more or less.

As I said in previous post, some things in Pyung ahn hyungs make no sense. We have studied them and changed a bit, mainly thing to improve balance or finish the hyung at the right spot

 

[Gi1]

Hi Lynne

2) sounds as if we do it differently. We do the sang soo ha dan mahkee with open hands and the twisting of plams over each other is an application of leverage to disarm someone of a club/baton/bar (I've done it twice in real life against iron bars and it works)

I think you've got enough answers for the rest to keep you going for a whlie, good luck with your hyung hope you're enjoing it.

 

[Lynne]

I am enjoying the form. Last night, I learned some new things about my form. I found that when we do the jump, we are supposed to sit on the back heel. I'd never come down that far before. Eh...lost my balance quite a bit. It's tricky to get the feet in the right position.

Also, one of my classmates told me he had learned something new with a different instructor. After the opening yup makee, you are supposed to twist both feet back and forward again as you do the toro center punch. That makes sense so that you can engage the core muscles. We do offensive stepping/twisting for other punches. I haven't been taught that so I probably won't do it during my test next week (I'm testing for third gup).

I have the feeling we will never stop learning something new about this form, lol.

 

[JoelD]

Good luck on your Red belt test, Lynne. What is your required break?

 

[Lynne]

Good luck on your Red belt test, Lynne. What is your required break?

Hi Joel,

The break is the spinning back/hook kick (dwi tolio chagi). We haven't done it a whole lot in class. It's not unusual for people to not be able to break during the test. However, we are allowed to keep trying during class if we don't break during the test.

I've tried picking up my leg at 3:00 (clockwise) but I lose my balance. I seem to keep my balance better at 6:00 or 7:00 but I don't know if I will gain enough momentum to break the board?

I'm going to practice the hook kick and the spinning back kick a lot between now and next week.

 

[foggymorning162]

Good luck on your test I'm sure you'll do fine. Extra good luck on the hook kick anything spinning is rough on the feet. What type of floor you will be on makes a big difference though we have puzzle mats and your feet stick on spin kicks.

 

[Lynne]

Good luck on your test I'm sure you'll do fine. Extra good luck on the hook kick anything spinning is rough on the feet. What type of floor you will be on makes a big difference though we have puzzle mats and your feet stick on spin kicks.

It depends on what day I go as to what the floor will be. If I go Thursday morning, puzzle mats. If I go Saturday morning, the upstairs hardwood floor. (We have two training areas.)

I know what you mean about sticking to the puzzle mats! I have dislocated my 4th and 5th toes just pivoting my foot for the roundhouse kick

I have a choice as to when I test. I hope I get a good board.