Push drag and step drag.

[habanero_heat]

Would anyone care to attempt to explain the difference between these two?

I the main difference supposed to be the distance covered during the manoeuver? I.e push drag is a lot further, or am i missing something?
:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

as far as I know you're right. a step drag is just what it sounds like, but with a push drag, you're really pushing off of your back leg to gain extra distance.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Yes the push drag covers more distance than the step. Each in their own right you have to visualize what you actually really need.

 

[Elfan]

From Infinite Insights 2 page 121:

"The Push Drag Shuffle requires that you lift your foward leg slightly off the ground and push forward with the rear or supporting leg. The supporting leg in turn drags after you so that the orignal distance before commencing the Push Drag Shuffle reoccurs again."

For comparison II 2 page 119 on the step-drag shuffle:

"1. Get into a right neutral bow
2. Step forward with your right foot into a deeper right neutral bow.
3. Now drag your left foot forwards so that the same distance is maintained between your feet as step 1."


That answer your question? Keep in mind that your istructor may not use the exact same terminology as the Infinite Insights series so he might mean something completly different.

 

[Michael Billings]

The push-drag, by definition, does not cover more distance than the step-drag. I tend to push-drag almost all the time, even if it is only an inch or two, literally. I attempt to engage my mass and move my axis into the target, while dropping and rotating, whenever possible.

The push-drag, as tailored for me, gives me that coming out of the starter blocks kind of feeling. I try to explode with the rear leg.

There are always trade offs; a step-drag gives you more control, in terms of retaining the option to retreat. When beginners learn, the step drag is much easier and allows a hand strike with both the lead foot step and rear leg shuffle. I am talking about strictly a primitive level of learning how to execute. The step drag is not better or worse, just another maneuver in the arsenal, and one easier to learn.

-Michael

 

[fanged_seamus]

The step-drag and push-drag have parallels in fencing:

The step-drag is the basic advance, and is used to close distance without full committment to an attack.

The push-drag is a lunge; it covers more distance and is a full committment of your body mass.

Granted, fencing isn't kenpo -- but I think of the parallels when I'm doing foot maneuvers....

Tad Finnegan

 

[habanero_heat]

Thank to all, thats clarified things
:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
The push-drag, by definition, does not cover more distance than the step-drag. I tend to push-drag almost all the time, even if it is only an inch or two, literally. I attempt to engage my mass and move my axis into the target, while dropping and rotating, whenever possible.

The push-drag, as tailored for me, gives me that coming out of the starter blocks kind of feeling. I try to explode with the rear leg.

There are always trade offs; a step-drag gives you more control, in terms of retaining the option to retreat. When beginners learn, the step drag is much easier and allows a hand strike with both the lead foot step and rear leg shuffle. I am talking about strictly a primitive level of learning how to execute. The step drag is not better or worse, just another maneuver in the arsenal, and one easier to learn.

-Michael

CORRETOMUNDO!

 

[Goldendragon7]

However, there is a distinct difference........

The "Step Drag" is exactly that....... you 'step' with your front foot (most of the weight on the rear leg momentarily), then drag up your rear foot... This is utilized for positioning most of the time.

The "Push Drag" is when you 'push' forward with your front foot shifting (most of) your weight onto the front foot then dragging up the rear foot. This is utilized when striking while shuffling is warranted.

:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
The "Push Drag" is when you 'push' forward with your front foot

I can't even begin to understand how to do that.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kirk
I can't even begin to understand how to do that.

It's a secret, known only to true Kenpoists!

(you spend too much time at cool weddings):rofl:

:asian:

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Kirk
I can't even begin to understand how to do that.

I think of it as sliding the front foot in the push-drag, but I may be wrong.

 

[Roland]

...with the Step/Drag, I seem to be able to use my lead hand very well, and the rear hand not so bad either.
But with the Push/Drag, I can really only pull off rear hand techniques with any real effectivness. I feel lots of power there, but nothing if I try to use the front hand.

Any helpful suggestions?

Thank you all in advance.

 

[Michael Billings]

You can understand it. Think about your back foot pointing slighly forward, maybe a modified close kneel, but only slightly. Then imagine that foot braced in a starter;'s blocks as in a foot race. From that point you can "push off" harder with the back leg. The front foot slides as you push the body forward. It is a lot faster, not hard. Gimme 10 minutes ... heck, mabe 5' and you will be an old pro at it.

Hitting hard with the lead hand in a push drag is part of why you execute the maneauver. More of a body momentum strike with the lead hand. Practice on a bag the step drag shuffle, step backfist, drag punch. Do it for 20 to 20,000 reps. Ok, now you are good at a basic meat and potatoes kinda sparring technique. Let's kick it up a notch. Same distance, Contact range, push drag shuffle drill. Push and do a lead hand heel palm, make sure the elbow is down and in line with shoulders and wrists, no winging your elbows out. Notice how much harder the lead hand is hitting the bag. The reason I have my students do it with a heel palm, is all of a suddent they are using body momentum and the backup mass is actively engaged and behind the weapon, using proper body alignment. If they try this with a jab, they can, and do hurt their wrists, until they get it right.

Follow the lead hand strike with a strong rotation, as you rotatate to a close kneel as your back hand strikes. By rotating and slightly moving your back foot closer to the front into the modified kneel (sometimes called a "soft bow" - because there is not a lot of height change, just a couple of inches), you once again have engaged your body mass and are hitting harder, getting there faster, and training more realistically for the fight - or at least training more realistically to hit an opponent faster and harder at a tournament or the street.

Wash, rinse, repeat ... ad nauseum. It will get better. Someday when you get this down, we can talk about the "Bear Blitz", with Sigung LaBounty's approval.

Just one opinion among many,
-Michael

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
You can understand it. Think about your back foot pointing slighly forward, maybe a modified close kneel, but only slightly. Then imagine that foot braced in a starter;'s blocks as in a foot race. From that point you can "push off" harder with the back leg. The front foot slides as you push the body forward. It is a lot faster, not hard. Gimme 10 minutes ... heck, mabe 5' and you will be an old pro at it.

I can see pushing off with the back foot, but Mr C said to push off
with the front foot. I think I'm not understanding something here.

 

[Michael Billings]

I see your confusion Kirk. In rereading his post he does say shift it to the front and then the rear food (I had to edit this to say "foot" not "food", but it sounded funny, so I left it in) drags up. I think I learned this maneuver from him years ago, as I do not remember my Chinese Kenpo utilizing it. He showed it to us a a "quicker way of getting there." I will have to check my notes. They are old and yellow by now. But as I wrote it, does it make sense to you? If so, play with it an see. If not, feeling is beleiving and I can show you next time I see you.

We will have to wait for enlightenment from the Golden One regarding his post

By the way, my students really enjoyed meeting the Golden One in his home town under the sun. Thanks for taking the time Dennis, they loved it. I think you inspired a kid to keep the enthusiasm for the Art. Always time not wasted.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I see your confusion Kirk. In rereading his post he does say shift it to the front and then the rear food (I had to edit this to say "foot" not "food", but it sounded funny, so I left it in) drags up. I think I learned this maneuver from him years ago, he showed it to us a "quicker way of getting there."

WHAT?! NOT in my post does it say food.......... ? where are you reading that...... you must be watching Kirk munch that ham sandwich on Rye with extra mustard!!

yes, you push off with the front foot "initially" - first while shifting your weight forward and continue to push and reinforce with the rear foot then the rear foot drags up (proper timing needed). The principle of with, launching, determined engagement, proper body alignment, back up mass, and others creates a faster explosive advancement than a step drag (body weight shift is different) this is normally utilized with a strike off the front or rear arm or hand which also enhances the movement forward, thus creating a strike with strong reinforcement behind it.

Originally posted by Michael Billings
By the way, my students really enjoyed meeting the Golden One in his home town under the sun. Thanks for taking the time Dennis, they loved it. I think you inspired a kid to keep the enthusiasm for the Art. Always time not wasted. Michael

My pleasure, it was fun meeting and talking to them.

:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I see your confusion Kirk. In rereading his post he does say shift it to the front and then the rear food (I had to edit this to say "foot" not "food", but it sounded funny, so I left it in) drags up. I think I learned this maneuver from him years ago, as I do not remember my Chinese Kenpo utilizing it. He showed it to us a a "quicker way of getting there." I will have to check my notes. They are old and yellow by now. But as I wrote it, does it make sense to you?

Yes, definitely. And again, I thank you. I appreciate you "being
there" as often as you have!

Originally posted by Michael Billings
If so, play with it an see. If not, feeling is believing and I can show you next time I see you.

Well either way, sounds good to me.