Powerful People

[glad2bhere]

How do you handle the Power that you have?

Administrators have power.

Teachers have power.

Higher ranks have power.

If you are the provider of a particularly rare or exotic service you have power.

If you are clever, smart, wiley or knowlegeable, you have power.

If you are in charge of the money or set prices or rates you have power.

What is that power to you? How do you manage it? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

Ran across this quote recently thought it was applicable -

"A hundred times every day I remind myself that my inner and outer life depend on the labors of other men, living and dead, and that I must exert myself in order to give the same measure that I received and am still receiving."

Albert Einstein

 

[MA-Caver]

Interesting.
Yes, in many ways we all have power over someone else at one time or another.
Employer to employee, teacher to student, parent to child, and so forth.

Personally I've had that so-called-power over people on several occasions. Still do I guess, as a babysitter over my charges.
I don't like power, no - seriously I don't. My philosophy of everyone .... everyone being equal to me regardless of their personal/professional status has taught me to be inhibited with the thought of power, or the acquistion of power.
I will try to use it as little as possible. If I am a supervisor in charge of several people and a particular job must be done then I'll direct best as I may and then work along side so to not elevate myself above my co-workers. I'm just there to make sure everyone has something to do in relation to the job before us. I'll delegate rather than order or command. I expect to be "obeyed" <for want of a better word> or followed because I am the one chosen to remind those I supervise that they have their job to do and they need to do it if they want to be paid for it.
I've only fired or dismissed someone a couple of times because they didn't recognize the authority given to me by MY boss and they failed to do what I needed them to do. I didn't like doing it. What does that say about me. That I'm unfit for command? :idunno: I don't think so, it was my job and it was what was expected of me.
I don't mind following, I don't mind leading. Personally I'd rather be participating and working together, but there aren't too many stations in life like that... except maybe marriage. :uhyeah:
I guess you can say that I, as a cave guide/trainer that I am the provider of a particularly rare or exotic service, but I wouldn't go as far as to say I have Power. A skill yes. and one that I can impart to another, but it doesn't give me power over someone per se'. Either my "students" (when I train) are going to do what I show them to do or they're not. Their choice. I guess the only power that I do have is deciding whether or not they can participate on my caving trips (that I lead). Is that Power? :idunno: I dont' see it that way. I make the decision yea or nay because of the safety factor involved with what I do/teach. This is for everyone, including me.
Higher ranks have power? You mean by MA instructors and that they are BB's. Do they have power? Well, again, they are the instructors and a person can still choose to do what they say to do or not. We surrender our "resistance to follow/obey" because we desire to learn from them. They are giving something to us and likewise we are helping them support their families/lifestyles. In essence we have more power over them if put into that context. By and large they accept us as students not only because we have an earnest desire to learn but also we can afford to pay them for the services rendered.
My friend's instructor would be willing to teach me because I do have a desire to learn, but he won't unless I write him a check because he has mouths to feed and it's not good business sense to do so. So he has power over me, but if I'm able to pay him for his teachings then he is obligated to me (if he accepts my check/money) and thus I have power over him.
A fair retailer will only decide the price of a piece of merchandise/service to help cover overhead/costs and (rightly) make a modest profit. If they're being fair/reasonable then no, they don't have power because they're not demanding a customer/consumer to pay whatever they decide. It's the same thing that customers/consumers will have power over the retailer by NOT buying at the price specified and thus forcing the retailer to cut prices until they are sold.

I think real power is two fold, has two faces.
There is the power to get people to follow you willingly because you're able to effectively lead, influence them to do what you want them to do and your motives (as seen by your followers) are that which will benefit them. Basically the power that others give you.

The power to force someone to do what you want is the other face. The tyrant/dictator/whatever. You're not given a choice (or much of one) when they TELL you to do this or that else you suffer dire consenquences. Hitler, Stalin, Hussein and so forth have these faces.

Power can be good or bad, depends upon the person wielding it. Power can be exerted more or less again, depending upon the person who wields it.

As I said, personally I'll only have as much as I need to have for that particular moment, with everyone (in my eyes) being my equal. Afterwards, everyone is still my equal, only I don't exert the power I had/have over them.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.Matthew 20:25-28

This usually works for me

 

[Michael Billings]

This topic, while interesting does not belong in the Hapkido Forum. Unless you are talking about famous, historical, past or present Hapkidoist (or their progenitors) I will move this potentially facinating thread to The Study in the General Martial Talk fora.

-Michael Billings
MT Super Moderator

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

The reason I opened this string in this particular area is because of the very nature of Hapkido. Please allow me to elaborate.

a.) Unlike Taekwondo, the Hapkido arts are not a martial sport. Even in the most liberal definition a martial art, the Hapkido arts proceed from martial traditions and encapsulate martial science in a variety of forms-- both armed and unarmed. Almost without exception, Hapkido material has been historically intended for survival under desperate circumstances and routinely includes techniques intended to main, debilitate, incapacitate and even kill ones' opponent. The ability to do such things to another is a form of Power that we, as practitioners, help develop in ourselves and in our compatriots.

b.) Unlike many of the modern organizations, traditional Hapkido arts are commonly associated with a Kwan model of organization. This model can include a hierarchy of seniors and juniors, and commonly has a mentor. All of these positions are acknowledged in a tight network of deference, authority and care-giving. All of these positions entail Power of various degrees.

c.) The Hapkido arts continue to invoke the highest level of service by the individual to his community. This requires that person to be of high Character. I believe that the true measure of a persons' Character is how they conduct themselves when they have Power.

d.) There are no shortage of contributions about people who misuse or abuse Power, usually from positions of authority. Currently the Hapkido arts suffer from a number of such situations or fall-out from previous situations. What is lacking is a dialogue about the nature of Power itself by Hapkido practitioners as regards their art. I have no qualms about listening to feedback on this subject from practitioners of other arts, but if I had wanted that I would have put this string in a larger forum or under a more general heading. I am a Hapkido practitioner and teacher, whose art is suffering from misuses of Power and I am very interested to discuss the nature of Power in all its facets with other Hapkido practitioners. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[TigerWoman]

I don't consider that I have much power, not in the way of influencing others. I am just a black belt, a student, who has learned some and would like to give to others what I have learned and have benefited from. Using power over another student is not something I would consider using. Theodore Roosevelt said, "speak softly but carry a big stick" . I think power is perceived by lower rank students or non-maists because you are a black belt. Little do they know, the more you learn, the less you can actually use it on someone else, unless your life is being threatened. A student has as much power as you do in actuality. The power to choose.

From researching for another proverbs thread, I found this, for everyone to ponder... ??? TW

"Power lasts ten years; influence not more than a hundred."
Korean Proverb

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tiger Woman:

I would invite you not to blow so much smoke up your own pants-leg. You are not required to pretend anything to me. You have known about power in your life since the first time you were teased (or was it YOU who were teasing?) another child in the neighborhood, at school or on the playground. You knew about power the first time your parents told you that you could not do something and the rationale was "....because I said so." At least some part of training in a KMA related to Power--- getting stronger, defending yourself, having control of a weight problem, sticking to something without giving up...etc etc etc. And when you have the authority to tell someone else that what they are doing is incorrectly done and you show them the right way and expect that they will modify their behavior in response to your direction, is this not Power?

I originally intended to develop this string for Hapkido people who have suffered at the hands of a number of folks who have abused Power in the Hapkido Arts community. The string was moved here. Fine. I can deal with that. It will require me to speak to people I had not intended to dialogue with regarding this issue but thats all to the good. So lets try this, Tiger Woman. You and I both know that Power and wielding Power can be pretty intoxicating. Some people even speak of being "drunk with Power." I'd bet money you have been in situations where this has been a temptation. How did you keep your Center? Thoughts? Anyone? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I run into the "Power" question regularly. I run several forums, a business, and a family. The family is the easiest, the business is in the middle, and the forums are the most troublesome.

My preference is to NOT use the power I have. I'll use MT as the example.
I own the board. The old saying "The Buck Stops Here" fits.
But, I have an able staff that is allowed the autonomy of action, senior staff to guide them, and an administrative staff that runs the day-to-day operations of the site. I very rarely have to play the "owner card". We seek the balance not the "Well, Bobs the Boss" angle that is common on many other boards.

I prefer to be more like water, than lightning.

:asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Great post! But now I am going to turn the heat up (but just a bit).

".......My preference is to NOT use the power I have. I'll use MT as the example.
I own the board. The old saying "The Buck Stops Here" fits.
But, I have an able staff that is allowed the autonomy of action, senior staff to guide them, and an administrative staff that runs the day-to-day operations of the site. I very rarely have to play the "owner card". We seek the balance not the "Well, Bobs the Boss" angle that is common on many other boards......"

I would bet dollars against donuts that you were not "born" this way. By this I mean that most people who are "easy going" usually cop-out by saying, "well, thats just my nature." I bet you have near daily opportunities to remind people that "its' my way or the highway", but you choose not to. There are also many more people who would see nothing wrong in this because--- well after all-- its YOUR game, right? Thats an explanation that is used more than a little in KMA organizations all over the World. So where did you take a turn, so to speak, and decide that an approach other than the expected Authoritarian Model" would be just as productive? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Actually, I've always been this way. I've never seen reason in the 'might makes right' aspect. We all eat, sleep, love, hate, breath, etc. Or, as my grandmother was heard to say "we all put out pants on the same way. 1 leg at a time, though we may disagree on which leg goes in first, and sometimes try to put them both in at the same time.".

There is an aspect of Zen that sort of goes like this:
"The one with nothing to prove proves nothing, while the one with something to prove proves all."


Opportunities and choices surround us. We can choose to respond, or we can choose to react. Even if we choose to do nothing, we have still choosen a path.

I may insult you.
You can 1-lash back 2-calmly refute 3-report it 4-ignore it 5-file it away for later revenge 6-allow others to do 1,2,3,4,5

Of course, having power, and being powerful are also seperate things. For example, A child can pull a trigger and kill, yet that does not make the child powerful.

 

[TigerWoman]

I didn't say I didn't have any power. We all do, to survive. I defended myself twice years ago when I wasn't in MA. Have I been teased, bullied in my life. Yes, like most of us. Have I bullied, no I haven't. And not either from "more" power from TKD. Power is also of the inner kind, inner strength or outer strength, physical. Or it is influence. That is the type of power which I don't think I have much of, as an non-owner teacher subject to the owner's parameters. I have power to choose. To leave or open my own school. Do I demand someone to do the technique my way or the highway. No I don't. I show them the right way, but it is their choice in the end. After all adults are adults. Children, however, need more structure and discipline. Even then, faced with a 5 year old that wants really to run and jump, rather then do form, I have to adjust to his style of learning and not insist my way. Intoxicating power, not. Smiling/humor, good attitude toward life, finding common ground, and humility are positive ways of dealing with the negative aspect of power. TW

 

[kenpo tiger]

As to any Martial Artist who would use his rank as a weapon against lower ranks: there are many many other threads in the forum which deal with this exact concept.

My take? Run -- as far away and as fast as you can.

You will learn nothing from someone who is full of himself and nothing else.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kaith:

OK, for the time being I will accept what you are saying, but that still doesn't speak to how you, as an authority figure (for want of a better term) avoid abusing the power that is argueably given into your hands. It would be an easy thing to use your authority (Power) to make things come out the way that you want them-- or at least to make thing difficult for people who may not agree with your take on things. Putting to one side the matter of genetics whats going on in your head that keeps you from taking another approach. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[FearlessFreep]

Character

For some people, exercising power is not a big temptation, and exercising it unfairly is not a desireable way to live

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tiger Woman:

Sorry, but I am going to hold yer feet to the fire. Don't get concerned because this is NOT personal. I'm simply pushing to talk about something that people don't usually talk about, with a lot of candor.

"......Even then, faced with a 5 year old that wants really to run and jump, rather then do form, I have to adjust to his style of learning and not insist my way....."

No, you don't. You can tell him to get his 5 y/o a$$ in line and what the h*** is the matter with him that he doesn't get his act together and if he doesn't like it he can find another school. -----

But you don't do that

and my thought is that economics (he MAY actually leave your school) isn't the ONLY reason that you don't. There is something that clicks in your head that allows you to decide to sort things through instead of using Authority as a weapon. Do you know what that is? Do you have any thoughts about that?

And while we are at it don't think that I am painting Power in a bad light. Its a tool like my body or my sword is a tool. I am looking at why some people can take that tool and make a masterpiece and some people can use that tool as an instrument of torture. Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What would using my power prove? I have no desire to be powerful, no need to stoke my ego, nothing to prove, or disprove. But, let us take a step back for the moment.

What IS "Power"?

More importantly, what is Power, what is Control, and, what is the difference?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear kempo Tiger and Fearlessfreep:

I am going to push you both to get with the program and lay the esoteric to one side.

What is it that helps YOU NOT abuse authority or power when it is given into your hands. I bet both of you have had opportunities and COULD have bullied people to go along with how you saw things, but you CHOSE not to. How did that happen? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shesulsa]

No, you don't. You can tell him to get his 5 y/o a$$ in line and what the h*** is the matter with him that he doesn't get his act together and if he doesn't like it he can find another school. -----

But you don't do that

and my thought is that economics (he MAY actually leave your school) isn't the ONLY reason that you don't. There is something that clicks in your head that allows you to decide to sort things through instead of using Authority as a weapon. Do you know what that is?

Tact and responsibility.

I may not be the person you addressed the question to, but this is what comes to mind for me.

 

[glad2bhere]

dear Kaith:

"....What would using my power prove? I have no desire to be powerful, no need to stoke my ego, nothing to prove, or disprove. But, let us take a step back for the moment.

What IS "Power"?....."

You are absolutely right, but that is the motivation for starting this string in the first place.

I had originally wanted to focus exclusively on the Hapkido community but the string was moved here so we need to think in a bit more global terms.

The fact is (and I am drawing from the Hapkido community) that a number of people have done some pretty outrageous things in the past few years. No sense in going into detail but I think most Hapkido folks would be up to speed on what I am talking about. It seems to me that most folks would observe the behaviors I am talking about and identify them as toxic or detrimental behaviors that do more damage to the Hapkido community than help it. Now, my thought is that if people recognize those behaviors as toxic, and people regularly report that they do not support those behaviors, HOW THE F*** do they continue to exist!!!. It can't be a rationale answer because a rationale explanation does not exist. I also find that not EVERYBODY behaves the same way. I suggest (based on another string on another Net) that what we are talking about is the matter of Power, how it is acquired and how it is applied.

Now we can do a couple of things. We can ask the people exhibiting toxic behaviors why they do what they do. I don't hold much hope for that. OR we can ask people who manage power well--- even on a small scale--- how they do what they do. I figure we wil have more luck with that. First, though, we need to drop the Fortune Cookie and Biblical responses. I think we ALL know the ideals and thats what these quote represent. What would be more productive (IMVVHO) would be to ask people what they use for management techniques when THEY are given POWER. Hope this is making sense, cuz its the end of the day for me and I am beat!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce