Powerful HAPKIDO people

[Master Todd Miller]

FWIW, I agree with Brian. We pray that all men and women would aspire to always act benevolently and in the best interest of their art and students. However, humankind is not perfect so even those who practice martial arts are not perfect (just striving for perfection, a goal which will always be out of our grasp). In the end, the only person any of us can control is ourself.

Miles

I have to agree with Miles & Brian on this. One of the reasons training in the Mudo are so important is that we are imperfect beings and we see or should see that in our selves. Continued everyday practice helps our body and more importantly our spirit to grow beyond the petty things in life (some call this enlightenment). I look at it like this training is kind of like a filter: there are many things that can take our attention away from the important issues in life and proper training helps us to see through these things a little better.

Just some thoughts,

sincerely

www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian, Miles et al:

Having said what you have, do you see a need for closer networking among practitioners? This is kind of hard to describe because each time such a theme comes up it always seems to be within the context of starting some new organization :mp5: :jedi1: Thats not what I am thinking and I really don't want to go down that road. I think what I am wanting ask is if there is a need to make the idea of Hapkido practitioners networking with each other informally a common characterisitic of what we do. Right now, the tendency is for like-minded folks to get together, but it is always because those folks share a particular view of how Hapkido comes together for them. To me it seems as though the heavy emphasis of most groups is the physical side of the art. Now, there are Hapkido groups that have more tightly defined behavioral requirements like the WHRDA and the WKSWA, but these groups are always suffering from splits and the reputation for being cultish. I think I could be forgiven for characterizing the Hapkido arts as being comprised of practitioners with a bent towards independent thinking and action, and an in-bred fear of being told what to do. I think what I am describing is a fundamental change in the image of the Hapkido arts, or at least how they are perceived on the KMA community stage. Its a little like TKD as Martial Art and as MArtial Sport. There is a difference between the two, but the question is whether there is sufficient reason to delineate clearly and formally. What I am throwing out for discussion is perhaps a need to delineate between the Hapkido arts as a commecial venture vs a cultural venture. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

Dear Brian, Miles et al:

Having said what you have, do you see a need for closer networking among practitioners? ...

Hapkido practitioners networking with each other informally a common characterisitic of what we do. ...

To me it seems as though the heavy emphasis of most groups is the physical side of the art...

What I am throwing out for discussion is perhaps a need to delineate between the Hapkido arts as a commecial venture vs a cultural venture. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Kind of switching it up here - ok I'll bite

The sharing of ideas is always beneficial to the growth of any endeavor. When ever I'm in a strange town I try to check out if they have hapkido there. If so I stop by. There are some local people that I am planing to visit. There is also Jackson. I think most people are open to the idea of guest students.

The empasis on physical - it is a physical activity. Any spirituality or character development stems from it. It is the physical activity that teaches us mindfulness.

I don't think there is a need to delineate. Every teacher has a differnet emphasis. Some kick more than others, some throw but you still are getiing facets of the whole art. Eventually you get it all. If you have the McDojang mindset saying you are a cultural endeavor isn't going to help.

As a cultural endeavor I don't think it is necessary to become a koreaophile to reap the benefits of hapkido. It may give you a better understanding in a historical sense but not necessary. I don't need to know the history of basketball and America to be in the NBA. (just need to grow a foot and get an be able to go to my off side)

 

[glad2bhere]

".....The sharing of ideas is always beneficial to the growth of any endeavor. When ever I'm in a strange town I try to check out if they have hapkido there. If so I stop by. There are some local people that I am planing to visit. There is also Jackson. I think most people are open to the idea of guest students......"

Exactly! I think Jackson-like activities would be a very good model to build-on. For instance, heres' some things that would help.

1.) Open private homes of local members to folks from out of town. If need be, the money that would be paid to motels could be gifted to the local person, to the school or just kicked into a "kitty" for the following years' expenses.

2.) Cut the number of workshops to two or three (at most) and expect 100% participation; no spectators.

3.) Include presentations on school management; discussion groups on values and ethics with resources for further investigation.

4.) Organize a support network--- no charge-- for people who want follow-up on what they experienced at Jackson year-round.

If their is one key to all of this its to get people out of their isolationism and communicating. Think of it like the folks who go around at social gatherings and get the wall-flowers involved in activities. Hell, something as simple as a Name permanently displayed on a uniform would be a BIG step forward!! Yes, I know. This flies in the face of the usual Hapkido behavior. At most gatherings individuals go off by themselves and "stretch-out" and most folks leave them to that. The only ones going around are usually the glad-handers with something to sell or wanting to recruit people to their groups or organizations. I also acknowlege that most people go out to dinner or the bars after a workout. Ever wonder why they need to hide behind a mouthful of food or drink? Maybe food or drink is a pleasant shield or distraction when conversation gets a little too "heavy", yes? For myself, I was surprised how difficult it was to discuss Hapkido in any depth with people outside of the school. Still can't quite get my head around that one. People come from miles away to sit in a bar and gossip about what--- Football? Baseball? Other peoples shortcomings? Can't quite fathom that. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

My thoughts

"1.) Open private homes of local members to folks from out of town."

I think that is a lot to ask of Master West's students. Opening your home to strangers while nobel is a bit much. I know in my case my wife tolerates my MA obsession,(good naturely calls me a MA nerd) don't need to beat her over the head with it. If I had children don't think I'd be comfortable at all. As previously noted just because you are in the MAs doesn't mean you are a good person or one that can be tolerated on a round the clock basis.

"2.) Cut the number of workshops to two or three (at most) and expect 100% participation; no spectators."

A lot of non Hapkido people show up to get a feel of the art. So the multiple workshops allow them to pick what may interest them. There is the factor of Multiple Masters attendeding if they want to share they should have a venue. It also allows people to "hey, I heard about this guy lemme see what he's like"

100% participation - don't know why you would come if you don't want to join in.

"3.) Include presentations on school management; discussion groups on values and ethics with resources for further investigation."

Great Idea

"4.) Organize a support network--- no charge-- for people who want follow-up on what they experienced at Jackson year-round."

I think this is in place - you meet someone there that is in your area - agree to meet at home. From what I've found Rudy JR and other people are more than willing to take a phone call or email.

"I also acknowlege that most people go out to dinner or the bars after a workout. Ever wonder why they need to hide behind a mouthful of food or drink? Maybe food or drink is a pleasant shield or distraction when conversation gets a little too "heavy", yes?"

Eating and drinking has allways been a social activity. Most of the best conversations I've had are around a table. People also talk about ther things to find out about other aspects of each other. There can be too much of a good thing.

FWIW

Brian

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

See, now I think this is interesting, and in no way am I being critical of your list. I think every one of you observations has merit. For instance, bringing a person into my house with kids can get to be a pretty uncomfortable situation, especially for first-timers. What I think is interesting is the sense of "not doing", rather than doing. Again, this is NOT a shot at you. I point this out only because many times when something is being discussed it is not un-usual to have people in on the discussion "err" on the side of not doing. I am not sure if this comes from the idea of "if it works don't fix it", or inertia or that "isolation" I mentioned or what. But its not just that. Let me take one other comment you made about going out and socializing.

At home my wife and I go out an absolute minimum of once a week (its our "date") night. Chances are pretty good she will get me to go out a lot more than that, but once a week is the minimum. Also, the beer or Crown Royal I can get anywhere. Up in Illinois you can't swing a dead cat by the tail without banging into a bar. What we don't have a lot of where I am is a lot of face-to-face discussion of what we in the KMA do and why. Maybe this is why people do what they do when they are by themselves; because there is no true sense of MA community. Being more specific maybe the Hapkido community has no true sense of itself, I don't know. I just know that I don't have to sit 15 hours on a bus to go out drinking after a workout. I don't have to travel to Colorado to go out to lunch. I go to those events to connect with other practitioners ABOUT what we practice. Its not that I don't appreciate talking like this with you, but we both know the limitations of not being able to see each others face, or communicate in "real time". Did you notice the strings I started about committing to Jackson, and minimal standards and common terminology? Did you note the responses? People weren't exactly kicking down the door to contribute. Why do you think that is? Maybe they have nothing to contribute. Hmmmm. Theres' something to look into. Maybe they are shy about contributing. Theres another thing to look into. Maybe they just want to sit back and let others do the work. Yet another thing to investigate. But something I see in all of these things is a retiscence to be pro-active about what we do. Are you seeing the same thing I'm seing?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Rich Parsons]

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[glad2bhere]

Dear Rich:

Thanks for the heads-up. Scanning back over the string I think I have identified the post that was deleted and can surmize a pretty good reason for why this was done. Certainly no offense was intended to those of the Christian faith but I do apologize if my comment gave offense all the same.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

"I point this out only because many times when something is being discussed it is not un-usual to have people in on the discussion "err" on the side of not doing. I am not sure if this comes from the idea of "if it works don't fix it", or inertia or that "isolation" I mentioned or what."

I think that not everyone has the same concerns as you may have. What you may see as a problem, others may think is just peachy. To go back to the hotel vs private home issue. Why not have your own bed/shower/phone etc. If you stay in the same hotel as the gathering there is no need to make travel arrangements. Someone is there to take your messages, clean the room etc. You don't have to worry about your accommodations you can focus on the seminars.

Now if your rational behind staying with someone is so you can have constant rap sessions about Hapkido, I don't think that you will find many that will sign up for that either. I for one need a little down time to digest and reflect. So in this case I don't think its a matter of being proactive as a matter of taste or preference.

"What we don't have a lot of where I am is a lot of face-to-face discussion of what we in the KMA do and why. Maybe this is why people do what they do when they are by themselves; because there is no true sense of MA community. Being more specific maybe the Hapkido community has no true sense of itself, I don't know. I just know that I don't have to sit 15 hours on a bus to go out drinking after a workout. I don't have to travel to Colorado to go out to lunch. I go to those events to connect with other practitioners ABOUT what we practice."

You are going to have to eat over a weekend, I don't understand your objection to going out to eat or having a drink after the work out. You are still interacting with the same people. Some may still wish to continue the discussions about Hapkido other may want it be more free flowing. The vision of a weekend seminar I'm getting from you is some sort of endurance power session. Where all activities and conversation must be around Hapkido. Again, maybe too much of a good thing.



"Did you notice the strings I started about committing to Jackson, and minimal standards and common terminology? Did you note the responses? People weren't exactly kicking down the door to contribute. Why do you think that is?"

I think you did get some responses. The thread got hijacked though. People offered their curricula and some responses. Maybe others don't have anything to contribute, maybe shyness is an issue, or just maybe they just don't think it as important as you do. Where you may see a crisis they may only see bump in the road.

It's great to be passionate about something and another to beat people over the head with it.

Token Neil Young Quote " Doesn't have to mean that much to me to mean that much to you" - from "Old Man"

Brian

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

"...... The vision of a weekend seminar I'm getting from you is some sort of endurance power session. Where all activities and conversation must be around Hapkido. Again, maybe too much of a good thing....."

Well, here, you have me, Brian. I would not exactly characterize it as an "endurance power session", but you are right. After coming in from out of town for a weekend once or twice a year, I look to sqeeze all of the Hapkido out of the weekend that I can. Its no big secret that I have left events early rather than continue to participate after finding out what the actual agenda was. Over in Korea I had no qualms about eating and drinking hapki-yu-sool because I knew that I would not get another "dose" for another year. And if Life intrervened, which it often does, I would not get a refresher for Two years. It IS true that many of the folks who come to the Jackson event are already closely related to JR and his USKMAF as well as his school so what they don't get one weekend they can probably put together on another. There are also people who train in TKD or TSD and just come for the additional material a Hapkido seminar can offer. Me? I usually pack-up a number of books, papers, magazines and anything else I hope to share with someone and thoroughly expect they are doing the same. I remember one time I went to Jackson and was asking a number of people about Korean sword. Couldn't find a single person who had any interest, which probably wound-up making me look like a show-off out to demonstrate "how much" I
know. In fact, I stopped bringing my books after a while when it became apparent that people were automatically thinking I was pushing to sell them rather than discuss the format and approach for their opinions.

Tell you what. Let me put it this way.

Of course, there is also the practical side of it. I have only so many dollars budgeted for travel, which means a few small, one or two medium or one big event is about all I have to work with for myself. Last year it was Korea, and this year if I plan to squeeze out Korea plus at least one other. But if I were to do that, I don't plan on spending valuable time sitting on a barstool discussing Iraq or the recent Tsunami. Yes all of that is very true. But----

if Jackson is "not" a place that a guy who is passionate about KMA and Hapkido can go to steep himself in that art for weekend where exactly DOES one go? I don't know about you, Brian, but I don't need more drinking buddies. Nor do I need another Hapkido organization, any more political intrigue; not one more "grandmaster this" or "certification that". What I need are people who are passionate about Hapkido, where its been and where its going. The last time I was at Jackson I managed 10 minutes with Dr. Kimm and got at least one valuable insight into BON KUK GUM BUP. Now if I could do THAT for a weekend imagine where training could go! Don't hear me wrong. I am not discounting people who just want to get together and "play" for a weekend. But if there is room for people who want to romp and play I am wondering where the people are who are driven to do something else. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

"Of course, there is also the practical side of it. I have only so many dollars budgeted for travel, which means a few small, one or two medium or one big event is about all I have to work with for myself. Last year it was Korea, and this year if I plan to squeeze out Korea plus at least one other. But if I were to do that, I don't plan on spending valuable time sitting on a barstool discussing Iraq or the recent Tsunami. Yes all of that is very true. But----"

I see your point and again appreciate your passion. My experience of seminars is usually you only walk away with one or two that really stick. Most people aren't built like sponges. When someone starts at your Dojang do you teach them the entire white belt curriculum in the first day? If you did how much do you expect them to actually digest? I usually try to keep a notebook so I can go back and revisit things but even then I would have to have the notebook on the mat to get everything. I don't know about you but I have a hard time writing while doing nak bup.

I think most people don't see these seminars as a major part of their training but more of a fringe benefit or dessert if you will. I get more out of going to the dojo and dojang every week than a weekend now and again. Not that I don't learn something there, but its more to give me a new perspective.

"But if there is room for people who want to romp and play I am wondering where the people are who are driven to do something else. Thoughts?"

Well I was always taught if you can't find something build it yourself.

Brian

BILL MOYERS: Do you ever have the sense of... being helped by hidden hands?

JOSEPH CAMPBELL: All the time. It is miraculous. I even have a superstition that has grown on me as a result of invisible hands coming all the time - namely, that if you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can see that, you begin to meet people who are in your field of bliss, and they open doors to you. I say, follow your bliss and don't be afraid, and doors will open where you didn't know they were going to be.

* * *

My general formula for my students is "Follow your bliss." Find where it is, and don't be afraid to follow it.

--Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth, pp. 120, 149

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

".....I think most people don't see these seminars as a major part of their training but more of a fringe benefit or dessert if you will. I get more out of going to the dojo and dojang every week than a weekend now and again. Not that I don't learn something there, but its more to give me a new perspective. ...."

When I was a gueppie I think my perspective was closer to the one you mention here. Later when I stepped across the line as a BB and dedicated my life to Hapkido, there was still some of that "dessert" approach to seminars. Believe it or not I think it was getting out on the Internet that made the biggest change. Something that I have seen a lot of is the dynamic of people "talking" a good art but never quite getting around to matching their words with behavior. To large degree that was a motive for starting this string. In my own experience what I saw were many high placed individuals espousing some high-flown ethic and then quietly violating the hell out of it in their own lives. Now certainly I am not labeling EVERYBODY as we both know that is much too big a brush, but there were way too many people talking one thing and saying another. I figure it was pretty much the old "do as I say, not as I do" thing. I handled the first few experiences pretty well, and then a little less well and finally I could feel myself getting really annoyed. Now, as you pointed out --- a.) I have no control over their behavior and b.) theres no sense beating a person over the head about their own shortcomings. All too true. So, what I find myself left with is a strong desire tosimply no longer be "P"'d on and told to my face that "its' raining", if you know what I mean. I think what it is, I have become just a bit too old to blythely believe any old stuff some personality shovels at me just because he is "GM So-&-So, 10th Dan of Mir Ki Kwan". So it is that we have a thread on how it is that people come to abuse the Power they find given into their hands, yes? But for me personally the position remains that if there is room in the Hapkido community for other types, there is certainly room enough for me. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

So you found out that your idols have clay feet. Hopefully the shock was not too overbearing. A lot of what you are saying sounds like "They are not giving me what I want, so screw them." You can't expect people to lay a lifetime of knowledge at your feet just because you want them to. Or have them dictate their behavior to suit your needs. It doesn't work that way. Why? because people have their own needs and there are other people than you who are interested.

So where does that leave someone who has decided to dedicate their life to Hapkido? I guess the only options are 1. Move to Korea or 2. Start a Hapkido Hermitage. Either way I think your wife will miss date night.

In-Nae,
Brian

"Life is what happens when you are busy making other plans" - John Lennon

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

"......So you found out that your idols have clay feet. Hopefully the shock was not too overbearing. A lot of what you are saying sounds like "They are not giving me what I want, so screw them." You can't expect people to lay a lifetime of knowledge at your feet just because you want them to. Or have them dictate their behavior to suit your needs. It doesn't work that way. Why? because people have their own needs and there are other people than you who are interested......"

Nope. Already been through all that a long time ago. What I have been advocating for some time is "equal time" or "equal regard" for people who take their training with a bit more passion. Lets take a look at the scorecard, if you will.

If people want to talk about making a buck, do advertising, pitch some event or activity there are more than enough opportunities and venues.

If people want to stir-up controversey, point fingers and affix blame there is no lack of people to chime in with an opinion.

If people want to dibble and dabble in KMA, buy and sell rank, misrepresent or represent, test the waters sans commitment and otherwise avoid dedication while pretending engagement there are plenty of open ears, opportunities and suckers born every minute.

And to put the crowning touch on this, THIS VENUE, the "information superhighway", the INTERNET, which could be an incredible opportunity for people to discourse is actually LOSING intelligent folk who have grown fed up with the superficial, innane, mindless drivel that passes for 70% of the dialogues. I can name at least 5 and maybe as many as ten well-known MA authorities who have stopped, or severely curtailed their participation in discussions because they have decided that they simply don't need to hassle!! We had a concrete example of this very thing here on MT with the string that was closed down.

My position is that if there is room for all the superficial, the shallow and the mundane I suggest that there is room for the passionate, the intellectual the deeply-abiding. I am not talking about people laying their truths at my feet. I am talking about people being willing to process their truths in some sort of meaningful way. Alluding to such truths, suggesting such positions, promising investigation at some vague later date does not get it! And nobody is ordering anyone to behave according to MY dictates. What I am asking is that people live-up to the values they THEMSELVES have espoused. Absent that, perhaps the least folks can do is own that the Hapkido arts are no more than a well-oiled hypocrisy; an illusion perpetuated to sell a MA image. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

... Now if your rational behind staying with someone is so you can have constant rap sessions about Hapkido, I don't think that you will find many that will sign up for that either. I for one need a little down time to digest and reflect. So in this case I don't think its a matter of being proactive as a matter of taste or preference.

"What we don't have a lot of where I am is a lot of face-to-face discussion of what we in the KMA do and why. Maybe this is why people do what they do when they are by themselves; because there is no true sense of MA community. Being more specific maybe the Hapkido community has no true sense of itself, I don't know. I just know that I don't have to sit 15 hours on a bus to go out drinking after a workout. I don't have to travel to Colorado to go out to lunch. I go to those events to connect with other practitioners ABOUT what we practice."

You are going to have to eat over a weekend, I don't understand your objection to going out to eat or having a drink after the work out. You are still interacting with the same people. Some may still wish to continue the discussions about Hapkido other may want it be more free flowing. The vision of a weekend seminar I'm getting from you is some sort of endurance power session. Where all activities and conversation must be around Hapkido. Again, maybe too much of a good thing....Brian

Hi all:
I have always "pushed" for the idea of social gaterhings after some long hours of hard training. In fact, I usually organize a dance on Saturday night. I firmly believe that such socials have a significant benefit. In fact, I believe that it is essential to keep harmony in the family. Just think of it. Your wife, husband, or significant other goes to a seminar, spends anywhere from $100.00 to $500.00 (or more), and then spends his or her free time talking shop does not go over well with spouses.

In my experience, a nice social where spouses are not overlooked may just allow someone to return for another go at it next year. There is still ample time to get into some details with other practitioners, but it helps if someone takes the significant other for a spin on the dance floor while you talk shop.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy,

Yes, but lets be entirely accurate here. The fact is that you are very much an exception to the rule in your approach. By this I mean that of the few events I have been to that you oversaw or were a part of, your investment in people taking new insights into the art away with them was palpable. After the actual event, you are KNOWN for doing after-event impromptu-s such as the Parking Lot Seminar on breaking. What I see this doing is at least providing an option for people who want to "talk-shop" versus people who don't. Certainly I know that Kathy would not deal well with coming down to Jackson for a weekend and having to amuse herself during the day and then be sidelined at night as well. I'm right there with you. But if someone wanted to spend the weekend eat-sleep-drinking Hapkido I am afraid that you are offering one of the few opportunities for providing anything like that. If that would be expected happen at other events I suspect folks could network before the event or maybe connect at the event, but the chance to do it would be because THEY made it happen and not because it was promoted, encouraged or provided for by the activity. Does this make sense?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

OK, you have run allover the place with this one, It started as abusing power and now we are at why can't you find your place in the Hapkido world. I'm growing weary of playing Sancho to your Don Quixote

So, you are tired of being blown off. Maybe people are not seeing you as you see yourself, namely passionate, intellectual and deeply-abiding, oh you forgot humble. Perhaps it is you people don't want to deal with, not the ideas that you may have or want to explore. You do have good ideas but you seem to push people's buttons a lot.

"We had a concrete example of this very thing here on MT with the string that was closed down."

Actually no one left. There was a misunderstanding but it got worked out. Everyone is still here.

"I am talking about people being willing to process their truths in some sort of meaningful way. Alluding to such truths, suggesting such positions, promising investigation at some vague later date does not get it! "

Again see above.

I don't mean to be harsh. I enjoy the banter. But if this is the global response maybe it is time to examine your approach.

In-nae,

Brian

 

[kwanjang]

... of the few events I have been to that you oversaw or were a part of, your investment in people taking new insights into the art away with them was palpable. After the actual event, you are KNOWN for doing after-event impromptu-s such as the Parking Lot Seminar on breaking. What I see this doing is at least providing an option for people who want to "talk-shop" versus people who don't.
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce:
I have actually had loads of fun that way, but after two divorces I thought I would spare others the same fate lol. Love is grand, divorce is a hundred grand

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

We seem to have gone off on a separate path, here. Lets recap a bit.

The original string was and is about how power can and is mis-used and abused. If I have this correct we started out by discussing how people may be abusing power and generally I would like to talk about how we can shape what we teach such that people will handle power better. The discussion seemed to move towards the idea that people are going to do what they are going to do, and I don't fault that. However, we started talking about Jackson as a venue for demonstrating how people COULD shape their OWN behavior. In other words, I was imagining that the discussion of Jackson was a "lab" for seeing how we could use a situation and make an arguement for a better use of power. I have been "volunteeering" myself and my views rather than pick-out some other person (which always seems to wind-up in a fight).

This string is not about "me", and maybe I am wrong but it seems like you are want to identify what we are talking about as "my" problem due to "my point-of-view". I am NOT saying my point-of-view does not play a part here. What I AM saying is that there is a condition that exists, that there is ample evidence for the existence of that condition, and that we need to talk about it rather than say, "well, thats the way it is". Rudy was good enough to use HIMSELF as an example, and I concur with his comments, so we know that the matter CAN be dealt with if people want to. As I see it, the question as it stands right now is why don't more people take the approach I am talking about and both Rudy and I demonstrate? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[whalen]

Hello Bruce:
I have actually had loads of fun that way, but after two divorces I thought I would spare others the same fate lol. Love is grand, divorce is a hundred grand

My good friend Rudy I could not agree more.... Marriage is the only gift that you still give even after your divorce on a weekly basis....

Whenever someone asks for legal advise I give them My ex-wife's lawyers card ha-ha-ha

Great deal she got the house I got my doboks

Hal whalen