Poomsae

[terryl965]

I have a question for all the so called expert of them, whether ITF or KKW or the sport side to all apllication. Why do so many people do them like they are a stiff and so robotic? I was always tought to be fluid but it seems all I see anymore is the robotic and stiff looking people.

 

[igillman]

I was always taught that the judges need to see each movement properly from start to finish. If you perform the moves fluidly then one move flows into another and there is not a distinct start and end to each move.

 

[dancingalone]

I have a question for all the so called expert of them, whether ITF or KKW or the sport side to all apllication. Why do so many people do them like they are a stiff and so robotic? I was always tought to be fluid but it seems all I see anymore is the robotic and stiff looking people.

Because that is what is taught. My niece was part of the ITA before joining the ATA. In both organizations, the robotic look is very widespread. I believe this is because of the way they teach the forms, in so-called 'segments'. The ATA books list that certain combination movements should be done in quick succession, but if the instructor doesn't make the kids follow the book.... Well before you know it, you'll have a lot of little black belts running around making you look bad.

 

[bluewaveschool]

i tell my students steady pacing and that I need to see each move begin and end. There is a fine line between fluid and sloppy.

 

[terryl965]

When I say fluid I mean shape crisp moves but not looking like that robot guy from radio shack.

 

[bluewaveschool]

can you give an example of good vs bad? because I've seen a LOT of bad on youtube.

 

[dancingalone]

can you give an example of good vs bad? because I've seen a LOT of bad on youtube.

Let me pose 2 forms that most here have likely have never studied so hopefully we can approach it with a beginner's mind.

This hyung below is considered good form in ATA TKD, but it is undeniably robotic to an extent. Part of it is because the performer, an ATA world champion, is performing at learning speed. Part of it is because the ATA forms are just clunky. Still, I think you'll get the idea.

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But then again, different systems and even sub-styles within the systems have different ideas about what good flow is.

Here is an example of an advanced kata from Goju-ryu karate performed by a master in near his prime. You can tell that the kata is supposed to teach an entirely different lesson than that in the ATA form, regardless of the skill levels in the two performers, and the more fluid movements reflect it.

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[Balrog]

I was always taught that the judges need to see each movement properly from start to finish. If you perform the moves fluidly then one move flows into another and there is not a distinct start and end to each move.

I have to disagree. Every move has a distinct start, execution and end, but at the same time, it is very possible to work combinations and transitions that are very smooth and flowing.

 

[Archtkd]

This is Prof. Jae-yoon Ahn, 55, on his way to winning the gold medal in the Men’s Individual 2nd Master Division (over 51 years) at the WTF World Poomsae Championships in Cairo last year. He's very fluid and those who attended the 17th Kukkiwon Foreign Instructors Course in Chicago will agree he is one of the best poomsae teachers around. http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?CR=p1c6439m65933

This is Ky-tu Ding Dang of Denmark, who took the silver in the Men’s Individual 1st Master Division (41- 50 years).

http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?CR=p1c6439m66243

 

[bluewaveschool]

our camera is kinda crappy but does have a video function, i may get video of me doing a form tuesday night so i can get feedback

 

[dancingalone]

I was always taught that the judges need to see each movement properly from start to finish. If you perform the moves fluidly then one move flows into another and there is not a distinct start and end to each move.

An interesting thought. Which leads to ask which pattern set you practice and do you practice them in this tournament-oriented fashion at all times?

 

[Manny]

Nice post indeed. I think TKD forms tend to be robotic cause as you metioned judges wants this kind of movements to perceive if the techs is well executed, and at least tae guk poomsae were designed with this in mind. On the other hand I feel the okinawna and japanese katas are more related to the soul but body and every single kata I saw the karateka puts that... soul in every move.

I am one the few (if not only one) in my dojang who tries to do poomsae with soul and with some degree of drama even my kyumpa is done with drama, we must to remeber that kyumpa, ho si sul and even poomsae is a performance.

You are right most of the TKD practcioners do the poomsae like a mecanization because that's the way they are taught.

Manny

 

[Tez3]

How are the movements performed well if they are robotic though? These are SD and fighting movements and if not 'performed' properly in the situation they were designed for, it can leave you injured or a bit dead. Surely the 'performance' must be a properly excecuted movement as it should be done in martial arts not as a dance movement?
Is it now the look of the movement that's important rather than the usefullness of it that's important? Is it dancing or fighting?

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Question:

Why do so many people do them like they are a stiff and so robotic?

Answer( although somewhat rhetorical):

Is it now the look of the movement that's important rather than the usefullness of it that's important? Is it dancing or fighting?

Also, I think it's partly due to the way that hip twist and power generation are taught.

 

[KELLYG]

I think that is is more about how it is taught. I am fortunate to have two masters but both have their own style in preforming poomse. One you can see the fight. The form is preformed hard with an edge of brutality. The other takes a more artistic approach and you see the same fight but also see the flow. Both can preform the same form, it is done correctly but the performances have their own flavor. My problem is that I train with both and get confused some times as to how I want to represent my forms. I hope to take what I like about both and combine them!!

 

[bluewaveschool]

I think I'm more on the fight side than the artistic side.

 

[Gemini]

I think movements appear that way because most praticioners don't have a full understanding of the nature of poomses. Poomses emcompass a full range of motion including fast, slow, strong, soft, fluidity and power. There's only so much you can teach. The student has to seek an understanding...to "feel" it. It takes years and I've seldom seem anyone who can accomplish it at junior ranks.