Point sparing?

[sifu Adams]

Has point sparing weeken the fighting in the martial art. I trained in Eastern Ky and we didn't use pads and there wasn't a point system. everything was controled but believe me when you left the dojo you knew if you won or lost. I have since move to Ohio and been to tournaments in Tenn, Ky, Ohio, NJ, Ind, and even in Athens Greece but the fighting I saw didn't compare to the fighting I was use to. I have hosted many tournaments and when I started I didn't have a lot of rules and we went 2 min rounds.non-stop ... well... we had a few miss haps during the tournments and that caused me to rethink my no rules. my problem was the Martial Artist that alway done tournament point fighting did't know how to fall, was not use to attacks to the groan, and many of the black belt that was judging didn't know how to score it. Ex. my first tournament the guy who won, (TKD) end up with a black eye, bloody nose, and a dislocated shoulder. I even have a photo of a guy holding him above his head yet, he still won. Keep in mind the guys that lost walked out with veary little bruses. Since then I have went back to point sparing. my Question is without going to a NHB event. what rules would you put in place for a mixed martial arts tournament. keep in mind that we love to ground fight, sweep, grab, ect.... One of my students said to go to boxing points?

 

[TigerWoman]

I don't have the experience you have, but we used to do continuous 3 min. rounds-2 with a small break in-between at tournaments. The last two years we have gone to point sparring. For one because even with limiting rules such as no hand to the head, certainly no groin anything, no sweeps, there were still alot of injuries and fewer competitors showing up. And that's TKD.

I have sparred doing point system a couple of tournaments and I really don't like it. You just get going and they stop action for point recording, or it could be a fake or touch and they stop the action before you could have made the point. There is not that much moving around the ring, more in one place. Most of the points everyone gets is from boxing-quick jabs in. Seems like less effort to get a point that way than kicking. And then there is the definite lack of women in my category. TW

 

[sifu Adams]

TW, thanks for the reply. You hit it on the nose. I guess the question would be how can we as martial artist fix this issue? I see the same thing, I am not out to get anyone hurt but we (MA) sould be able to test our skills in a fair way with our someone going to the ER.

 

[TigerWoman]

I guess our old way was the closest. You have to take away the stuff that does the most damage. Again, I don't have the experience for that. I see really hard spin heels to the head but we can't do backfist. I see alot of groin shots that were accidental but pretty much finish the match. I've hear a few going to the ER afterwards for sprains and sometimes broken bones but it wasn't too bad. We have puzzle mats now so they are better too than the rug that was spread before on cement. And we wear cages on our headgear. It can't really be a test but it's the closest we can come. But now we do point sparring, sigh!

Other schools' tournaments aren't so limiting. One in the Cities is really a "hard" tournament and our master only allows a few to go occasionally. We had one girl, a teen, who was really good and had gone to nationals but she was KO'ed there and later found out she had a heart condition. It could have killed her either way. She left TKD. I remember our master telling us about all the medical emergencies. Others too have been injured there so not many go now--too wild. Nothing like the Olympics. Hopefully others with more experience of sparring will chime in.... TW

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I remember some of the old tourneys had rules that were a little more complex than 1 punch = 1 point, but it wasn't long before everybody knew them.

Take-downs (different than sweep or throw) mid-sparring: No points without follow-up
Well-executed and controlled sweep and/or Throw: 2 points
Sweep, take-down or throw followed by punch to downed opponent = 3 points (2 for the controlled and well-executed TD, 1 for the follow-through).

Legs are larger than hands, therefore technically harder to pull off well, and ideally capable of harder striking. Also, head = more important target for defensive guys to be really good at defending; penalize them if they can't by awardnig bigger points for head shots thatn torso shots. So:

punch to torso = 1 point
punch to torso, not clean (part of it's momentum bloked or checked) = no point. Just noise.
punch to head (landed clean without the other guy getting a piece of it, either via feinting, pinning, etc.) = 2 points.
Cleanly landed kick anywhere (again, defender didn't get a piece of it) = 2 points
Landed kick, clearly connecting with some impact, but the defender got a piece of it blocked = 1 point.

Fights have a natural clash to them, and clashes are graded: 5 clashes = the match, or sudden death till a score occurs.

MA 1 comes off the "hajime" at MA 2 with a quick low-line snapping roundhouse kick to the groin which connects, but not too cleanly (MA2 manages a weak check)...1 point...followed immediately by a lead hand backfist to the head of MA2, who misses any kind of a block b/c his hands are still down at his nuts...2 more points...taking advantage of a stunned and outclassed opponent, MA 1 settles his advancing weight onto MA 2, wrapping his arms around the body, and slipping in an osoto-guruma, which soundly plops MA 2 on the ground...not a beat is missed, and as MA 2 whacks the floor, MA1 has a reverse punch (pulled to demonstrate control) popping MA 2 right on the bean. 3 more points. Let's say, at some point, MA 2 flailed a defensive lead hook, and it connected, but only barely because he was being bowled over by MA 1. 1 point for MA 2. Time elapsed: 4-8 seconds. This is one clash. Stand 'em up, back to their lines, and "begin". Total of 5 clashes per match.

Very quickly, you'll have guys focusing on putting together sparring combos that include punches and kicks, with sweeps, throws and take-downs that control the opponents descent, followed by subsequent strikes.

Well...it was fun, anyways. And allowed a broader repetoire than standard point rules.

D.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Points sparring has its place,but will never replace real fighting and real hits. I think most of us agree on this. Judging is difficult,everything happens very fast. In our school tournments we have four coroner judges and one referee,many times no one or too few saw the points. It will never be 100 percent accurate. We do sparring in class with more contact and different rules. We ask all the students to enter tournments for couragement and to face the fears, everyone is match by colors of belts and near as possible to age. In the real world your opponent can be anybody(mostly likely huge and ulgy). Kids especially enjoy tournments. We keep it fun and safe. No one wants to lose and everyone trys to win. We have tournments only once a year. (Univeral school kempo-karate schools students only). We keep within ourselves,Big Island only. It is a lot of fun, today I perfer to judge.... Aloha

 

[Adept]

I dont think awarding points for blows is the best way to go. Sometimes a punch that looked good barely connected, and sometimes a punch that looked sloppy realy rocked the other guy on his feet. Often times the action is too fast to accurately score and sometimes the judges are poorly positioned to see the action.

I like the UFC style of scoring. The round winner gets ten points, the other guy gets nine points or less depending on how badly he did. Having watched a lot of fights, it is very, very rare to get a round so even you couldnt pick a winner. It is almost always clear who was the better fighter.

You would just need to work out a list of things that are taken into consideration when deciding who won the round. Things like effective striking, ring control, aggresiveness, and effective defense would appear on most lists. You could also work out a list of things that would incur a point reduction, like deliberate breaking of the rules or refusing to listen to the ref.

 

[An Eternal Student]

I think one of the few ways you could do it, while still maintaining the essence of actual combat, is to do what Bruce Lee did.He set up sparring using full body armor, padding and protective gear.The fighters could really let loose on each other wihtout fear of doing serious damage.

 

[Eldritch Knight]

The problem with full body gear is that it really limits your mobility and kills your ability to react. I'd rather spar medium to full-force with limited gear (open-fingered glove, shin pads, and goggles) against experienced people who I trust (e.g., are experienced enough to take a blow and mature enough to not try to kill me). I did point sparring with TKD, and the prevalence and importance on that was really what drove me away from that art (not to mention the lack of non-striking techniques).

 

[chinto01]

I think one problem that is wrong with tournament fighting and believe me I can give you a laundry list is the points awarded for kicks. Some of the tournaments around here award 2 points for a kick and 1 point for a hand technique. What this has caused is less and less hand techniques and more and more kicking techniques. Also lacking at tournaments is blocking and countering techniques and follow ups. I have been in recent discussions with a local promoter who agrees that the art of blocking is gone at the tournaments. If it were up to me I would say that all techniques kick or punch are worth 1 point, a well executed block and counter is worth 2 points, and if you evade a technique and counter it would be worth 3 points. To explain the last technique competitor a comes in with a front kick. Competitor b avoids the kick by side stepping out of the way to the blind side of competitor a and counters with a punch to the floating ribs. This to me is worth 3 points.

 

[The Kai]

To make matters worse there are tourny's up here that give 3 points for a kick to head, 2 points kick to body, 1 point for any punch. The art of defense is mostly gone from sparring these days

Todd

 

[Adept]

I'd rather spar medium to full-force with limited gear (open-fingered glove, shin pads, and goggles) against experienced people who I trust (e.g., are experienced enough to take a blow and mature enough to not try to kill me).

To be honest, I'd rather spar in just a cup and open fingered gloves with a decent staff on hand and limited rules. No fish-hooking, no strikes to the back of the head, no eye strikes and no groin strikes. Apart from that, go crazy.

I still dont see an advantage to scoring individual techniques. If a a guy sneaks inside his opponents guard and lays down three or four blows on his ribs, that is worth a whopping eight points. But if the judges didnt see it clearly, he only gets two points. And if he does get his eight points, he can just 'run' for the rest of the round to avoid getting hit and win by default. Even though he had no control over the ring, and was not obviously the better fighter.

I think it is easier and more fair to the fighters to look at the round as a whole and think "Okay, this guy fought better in this round, so he gets ten points. The other guy gets nine points, less a point for lack of effective defence. So the score for round one is 10 - 8."

Too easy.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Point sparring is good clean fun. Its a way to compete and test your skills the safest way possible. But if you want to move to the next level then you must go further than point sparring.

 

[Sin]

I agree that point sparring dse hender the effectivness of the art. cause then all people will do is train for the tournaments. witch isn't what you want to do on the street.

i do not have any suggestions for you because I am in the same delima myself. But just be sure that the fighters sign a release form and you have parametics on stand by