Picking a martial art?

[Gnarlie]

To draw firm your earlier examples, go to any boxing school. There will be students who regularly spar. Even in a boxing school with s losing record, you'll find guys that spar. Go to any bjj school and you'll find guys who roll with resisting opponents regularly. In the lowest denominators you have blue and purple belts claiming higher rank, but they could still out grapple most people with no bjj training.

My TKD experience is that people who attend Kukki TKD schools can spar. fitness level may vary because Taekwondo is an inclusive art, but the mid-grade guys can still spar at least competently, and spar regularly.

Now go to a tkd school. You may find light contact or no contact sparring, said school may not spar at all.

Does not reflect my experience of any Taekwondo school I have ever visited.

You'll see child black belts, accelerated black belt club programs.

Never seen this in person either.

Time is spent on kata and theory.

No it isn't, time is spent on poomsae and theory. Time is spent on theory in any martial art, including boxing and BJJ. Poomsae is the core of the art on which sparring is built and from which self defence principles are extracted.. You clearly don't understand that much about Taekwondo - so why spout off about it?

How does the fitness level of students at your average tkd school compare to the boxing school?

Just fine in my experience. In fact, in many cases exceptionally well.

How much weight does the rank carry compared to a bjj school?

Depends wholly on the club and instructor. In both arts.

Like I said, there is potential in tkd but the commercialized aspect of the art hinders it as a system. You have to be objective when considering a school. I could link my local tkd schools and no one would be impressed. I have criticisms of my own FMA system, and I surely don't think all the schools associated with it are of superior quality. That doesn't matter to me, I see the deficiencies and make sure I do better. Just be honest and admit tkd has a trend lackluster schools in the commercial martial arts market and do what you can to separate what you do from that.

That's exactly what I am doing here- you are making broad sweeping statements about Taekwondo, and I am differentiating Kukki Taekwondo from that. I just don't believe it is a national or global trend, when there are so many positive examples of Taekwondo out there, and my not inconsiderable experience of training Taekwondo in different countries does not reflect your generalisations at all.



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[Jaeimseu]

My TKD experience is that people who attend Kukki TKD schools can spar. fitness level may vary because Taekwondo is an inclusive art, but the mid-grade guys can still spar at least competently, and spar regularly.



Does not reflect my experience of any Taekwondo school I have ever visited.


Never seen this in person either.


No it isn't, time is spent on poomsae and theory. Time is spent on theory in any martial art, including boxing and BJJ. Poomsae is the core of the art on which sparring is built and from which self defence principles are extracted.. You clearly don't understand that much about Taekwondo - so why spout off about it?


Just fine in my experience. In fact, in many cases exceptionally well.


Depends wholly on the club and instructor. In both arts.


That's exactly what I am doing here- you are making broad sweeping statements about Taekwondo, and I am differentiating Kukki Taekwondo from that. I just don't believe it is a national or global trend, when there are so many positive examples of Taekwondo out there, and my not inconsiderable experience of training Taekwondo in different countries does not reflect your generalisations at all.



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To be fair to Mephisto, I can see how someone in the US could come to the conclusion that he has. I've seen some very good schools, Kukkiwon and otherwise, but I've seen lots of questionable schools, too. I've seen too many supposedly Kukkiwon schools doing very in-Kukkiwon-like Taekwondo. That said, the U.S. is a very large country and every region is different. The area I lived in was very weak on Kukkiwon taekwondo.

 

[Tez3]

As I've said multiple times in this thread, I agree, there is good tkd to be had. But you average tkd school? Not a good place to seek self defense and fighting ability.

And again how do you know that? You been to the UK, Europe, Australia, South America, Asia especially Korea? You haven't been to many clubs in North America even. You simply don't know that.

 

[Gnarlie]

To be fair to Mephisto, I can see how someone in the US could come to the conclusion that he has. I've seen some very good schools, Kukkiwon and otherwise, but I've seen lots of questionable schools, too. I've seen too many supposedly Kukkiwon schools doing very in-Kukkiwon-like Taekwondo. That said, the U.S. is a very large country and every region is different. The area I lived in was very weak on Kukkiwon taekwondo.

And I believe you have visited those schools that you speak of, and you're not speaking of anything on a national or global trend level. Yes there are weak schools out there, but I do not believe that they are in a majority and I also don't believe there is a downward trend. Quite the opposite thanks to NGBs and an established seminar structure.

The in-Kukkiwon-like schools you saw under the Kukkiwon banner will not sustain in the long term under an NGB structure because the grading and seminar requirements are becoming ever more stringent.

To advise someone new against choosing Taekwondo as an art on the grounds of a flawed generalisation based on personal experience is in my view somewhat unfair.

Just like every other art, it totally depends on the individual instructor.


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[Jaeimseu]

And I believe you have visited those schools that you speak of, and you're not speaking of anything on a national or global trend level. Yes there are weak schools out there, but I do not believe that they are in a majority and I also don't believe there is a downward trend. Quite the opposite thanks to NGBs and an established seminar structure.

To advise someone new against choosing Taekwondo as an art on the grounds of a flawed generalisation based on personal experience is in my view somewhat unfair.

Just like every other art, it totally depends on the individual instructor.


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I agree. Advising against TKD is taking things a bit far, unless you are looking for a particular skill not found in TKD.

 

[Instructor]

As a general statement; any system, style, art, or organization can have good and bad schools. It's best to judge each individual teacher and school on it's own merits or lack thereof.

 

[RobBnTX]

Of course it is more about the instructor and the what and how he/she teaches. Having said that I have observed some really good classes that I think over time with a lot of training would provide someone with the knowledge and ability to defend themselves if it came down to a situation that you just had to fight your way out of.

The schools in my area I think that would fit that description are a local Wado-ryu school, a local Isshin-ryu school, and a local Tang Soo Do school. Again, with lots of training and practice and it takes time!

There is an EBMAS Wing Tzun school that I tried out and it may be good for some people and it has an all around approach, that is they cover a lot of real life scenarios in their curriculum and it is suppose to get you to where you can defend yourself with some confidence in a relative short amount of time compared to other arts, usually six months or so but it takes years to finish and perfect their curriculum, but I just kept thinking someone with really good TKD skills would blow right through their techniques. Although they do move around and teach you how to shift around your opponent, it just seemed way too flat footed and static to me compared to TKD.

I like TKD for the cardio workout as in my old age I have developed a bit of a weight problem, after being thin my whole life! Some of the HoSin Sul self-defense techniques that I have been taught in various TKD schools though seem somewhat unrealistic to me.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

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It's important to look at school's on a case by case basis. Here's a clip of TKD self defense, including hands and in-close technique. As opposed to the sporting, kicking only conventions so often seen:

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EDIT: TKD is not for me. It's a personal choice. Take a look @ how the whole curriculum has been structured...others have spoken to this as well. I give these black-belts "A" for form.

I'm not going to offer an opinion on the quality of the "average" TKD school. I haven't visited enough of them to claim that I've examined a statistically significant sample.

I will say that this clip is an example of something I've seen in some TKD schools that would be an immediate red flag and would cause me to look elsewhere if I were looking for a dojang. In these one-step drills, the "attacker" is too far away. If the "defender" just stood still, the attacker's fully extended punch would come up at least a foot short of contact. (In some cases it's more like two feet short of contact.) The defender's defenses, footwork, and counterattacks are all based on that unrealistic distancing and would fail miserably if the attack was real.

Hopefully this sort of thing isn't the norm in TKD schools, but I have seen it before in more than one dojang.

 

[Drose427]

I'm not going to offer an opinion on the quality of the "average" TKD school. I haven't visited enough of them to claim that I've examined a statistically significant sample.

I will say that this clip is an example of something I've seen in some TKD schools that would be an immediate red flag and would cause me to look elsewhere if I were looking for a dojang. In these one-step drills, the "attacker" is too far away. If the "defender" just stood still, the attacker's fully extended punch would come up at least a foot short of contact. (In some cases it's more like two feet short of contact.) The defender's defenses, footwork, and counterattacks are all based on that unrealistic distancing and would fail miserably if the attack was real.

Hopefully this sort of thing isn't the norm in TKD schools, but I have seen it before in more than one dojang.

For many schools, this specific drill is more for beginners, and testing new things.

I will say, that how theyre doing it (the distancing, the punch not being a full speed/power punch, etx.) Would be considered wrong at my association and theyd get a talkin to

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm not going to offer an opinion on the quality of the "average" TKD school. I haven't visited enough of them to claim that I've examined a statistically significant sample.

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I haven't done a scientific study either. I basically went / go around to the TMA schools in my area & observe.... the TKD schools in my area tend to be more 'sporty' than this, or for the recreational student. Still, there are some good TKD stylists around me.

I will say that this clip is an example of something I've seen in some TKD schools that would be an immediate red flag and would cause me to look elsewhere if I were looking for a dojang.

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No, by my traditional karate standards, these guys are pretty good. I disagree.

1. In these one-step drills, the "attacker" is too far away. If the "defender" just stood still, the attacker's fully extended punch would come up at least a foot short of contact. In some cases it's more like two feet short of contact.)
2. The defender's defenses, footwork, and counterattacks are all based on that unrealistic distancing and would fail miserably if the attack was real.
3. Hopefully this sort of thing isn't the norm in TKD schools, but I have seen it before in more than one dojang.

Answer:
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#3. I did #3 first. Actually, you are right (in my mind) for pointing out some discrepancies. The way I look at this is that there is actually a whole series of dynamics going on in 1-steps. Slop or inaccuracies in perfect form are bound to exist or creep in. Moreover, I don't see these as a huge problem because a real-time contest has all kinds of variations one has to adjust to as well. The 1-steps are really dominant action on the part of the defender so I just keep that overall perspective and the value of the exercise is then never lost.
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#1. If the simulation of contact is the working objective, I stipulate to your correction. There are several working objectives of 1-steps. The more important working objectives concern KIME the part of the defender.
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#2. I don't get your objection here. All you do is state a conclusion? the distancing is 'unrealistic.' How so? the defenses / footwork / counterattacks are based on 'unrealistic' distancing??? Why?
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Incidentally, distancing is often used to describe sparring ranges which to me is often sport fighting vernacular.... In traditional karate, transitioning is the preferred term to describe karateka movements.

Thanks for the quote/ reply. Yet we are looking @ 1 steps through different martial glasses....

 

[ShotoNoob]

For many schools, this specific drill is more for beginners, and testing new things.

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Not by traditional karate standards. 1-steps are teaching a very sophisticated set of skills, particularly the Japanese karate version of KIME. At higher levels of skill, the Okinawan karate version of KIME takes a front seat.

I will say, that how theyre doing it (the distancing, the punch not being a full speed/power punch, etx.) Would be considered wrong at my association and theyd get a talkin to

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Where did you get the idea that traditional karate exercises are practiced routinely at full power, full speed? This is completely wrong.
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Can one practice @ full power / speed? Sure. But this is testing mode. Not traditional karate training mode....

 

[Drose427]

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Not by traditional karate standards. 1-steps are teaching a very sophisticated set of skills, particularly the Japanese karate version of KIME. At higher levels of skill, the Okinawan karate version of KIME takes a front seat.


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Where did you get the idea that traditional karate exercises are practiced routinely at full power, full speed? This is completely wrong.
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Can one practice @ full power / speed? Sure. But this is testing mode. Not traditional karate training mode....

Theyre done full speed, realistic power in my association (10 schools), the local Shorin Association(2 schools), and nearly all of the schools Karate or TKD I've visited or trained with students with.

Ive seen leniency on power/speed at test (although its frowned upon) but NEVER during regular training.

Doing them improperly or without the danger of "if i dont react properly this will hurt" during regular training is gonna give you a false sense of security.

Its how my KJN trained during the beginning years of our style and its how we will continue to teach.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

#2. I don't get your objection here. All you do is state a conclusion? the distancing is 'unrealistic.' How so? the defenses / footwork / counterattacks are based on 'unrealistic' distancing??? Why?

As I said, the attacker is stepping and throwing the punch at a range such that if the defender did nothing and stood absolutely still, the attack would end up 1-2 feet short of contact at full extension.

Training against an "attack" that is this far out of range affects everything. It affects timing. It affects angling. It affects footwork. It affects what defenses will work.

For example, look at the first sequence. The defender parries the punch with a crescent kick that connects at a point when the attackers arm is almost completely extended, yet the fist is about 2 feet short of the supposed target. If the attacker had been in range, that punch would have already connected with the defenders face (timing). The kick would have been at the wrong angle to connect with the punching arm. The follow-up side kick would have been at the wrong angle and range to connect.

Sequence # 2 has the same issues, but in addition the step forward to apply the final hand techniques is unnecessary, because the opponent would already be at close range. Same with sequence #3.

In sequence #4, the defender has to make a big step forward in order to connect with the attackers arm on his block/grab. If the attacker had been close enough to connect with his punch and the defender made the same step forward with the same timing, then the x-block would have connected with the attackers ribs while the attackers fist landed on the defenders face. The arm grab would definitely not be happening.

I have no problem with simplified exercises like one-steps. I have no problem with practicing moves at less than full speed and power. (Not always, but it has its place.) I have a big problem with practicing using incorrect distancing. Distancing is one of the most important aspects of combat no matter what the context.

Incidentally, distancing is often used to describe sparring ranges which to me is often sport fighting vernacular.... In traditional karate, transitioning is the preferred term to describe karateka movements.

Distancing is in no way limited to sport fighting. If you can't reach me, you can't hurt me. That's a fundamental reality whether you're in the ring, on the street, or on a medieval battlefield.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Theyre done full speed, realistic power in my association (10 schools), the local Shorin Association(2 schools), and nearly all of the schools Karate or TKD I've visited or trained with students with.

Ive seen leniency on power/speed at test (although its frowned upon) but NEVER during regular training.

Doing them improperly or without the danger of "if i dont react properly this will hurt" during regular training is gonna give you a false sense of security.

Its how my KJN trained during the beginning years of our style and its how we will continue to teach.

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There's any number of vids posted by others here @ MT on Okinawan karate. What you say is not how they are training in class....
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I have never been in a traditional martial arts class of any kind where the practitioners are routinely going full power.

 

[Drose427]

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There's any number of vids posted by others here @ MT on Okinawan karate. What you say is not how they are training in class....
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I have never been in a traditional martial arts class of any kind where the practitioners are routinely going full power.

Ive also seen many Okinawan Karate and TKD/TSD practitioners here agree with me on this, distance and a realstic punch are the two most important factors. If youre training against something drastically different, you wont learn to defend yourself against a punch. Which is the entire point of one step.

 

[ShotoNoob]

#1. As I said, the attacker is stepping and throwing the punch at a range such that if the defender did nothing and stood absolutely still, the attack would end up 1-2 feet short of contact at full extension.

Training against an "attack" that is this far out of range affects everything. It affects timing. It affects angling. It affects footwork. It affects what defenses will work.

For example, look at the first sequence. The defender parries the punch with a crescent kick that connects at a point when the attackers arm is almost completely extended, yet the fist is about 2 feet short of the supposed target. If the attacker had been in range, that punch would have already connected with the defenders face (timing). The kick would have been at the wrong angle to connect with the punching arm. The follow-up side kick would have been at the wrong angle and range to connect.

Sequence # 2 has the same issues, but in addition the step forward to apply the final hand techniques is unnecessary, because the opponent would already be at close range. Same with sequence #3.

In sequence #4, the defender has to make a big step forward in order to connect with the attackers arm on his block/grab. If the attacker had been close enough to connect with his punch and the defender made the same step forward with the same timing, then the x-block would have connected with the attackers ribs while the attackers fist landed on the defenders face. The arm grab would definitely not be happening.

I have no problem with simplified exercises like one-steps. I have no problem with practicing moves at less than full speed and power. (Not always, but it has its place.) I have a big problem with practicing using incorrect distancing. Distancing is one of the most important aspects of combat no matter what the context.



Distancing is in no way limited to sport fighting. If you can't reach me, you can't hurt me. That's a fundamental reality whether you're in the ring, on the street, or on a medieval battlefield.

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Wow, that's a long reply. Let me say @ the outset you are more technically concentrated than I. I focus more on principles. So there is a different in thought process...
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Tony, thanks for that detailed description OF #1. I'll try to respond directly.

#1A. As I said, the attacker is stepping and throwing the punch at a range such that if the defender did nothing and stood absolutely still, the attack would end up 1-2 feet short of contact at full extension.

Training against an "attack" that is this far out of range affects everything. It affects timing. It affects angling. It affects footwork. It affects what defenses will work.

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Reply to #1A: Yes, I stipulated as to practicing for actual contact, that working objective was NOT met by the attackers form.
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And yes, it affects all the physical dimensions of the physical confrontation. In particular, iT will affect what will work. I think the first advantage I SEE TO THIS 1-step exercise, is just as you noted, the opponent is too far away to do any actual damage. That principle is made plain by the attacker's failure to close properly. This is one of the great lessons of 1 steps....
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So, If I as the defender am paying attention, I really don't have to do anything.... do I?

#1B. For example, look at the first sequence. The defender parries the punch with a crescent kick that connects at a point when the attackers arm is almost completely extended, yet the fist is about 2 feet short of the supposed target.
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If the attacker had been in range, that punch would have already connected with the defenders face (timing). The kick would have been at the wrong angle to connect with the punching arm. The follow-up side kick would have been at the wrong angle and range to connect.

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Reply to #1B: You are saying the attacker has thrown the punch too soon. I got that. However, isn't the point, not to jump to your next sentence, to execute the kick so it blocks the punch? The defender does that. That is the technical working objective of defending against the strike first. The defender did that and so did accomplish that working objective. The problem of the attacker being out of position to hit..Still a problem from a contact standpoint... I can see that. From my view, the technical block-defense of the punch got achieved, we still have the attacker punch thrown "too soon" for realism re a competent punch.
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Here's where I get what you are saying. That once we fix attacker from throwing the punch from out-of-range, he's in too close for the distance & the timing of the crescent kick to work. I can see the problem. I could agree that a crescent kick might not be the best technique here.
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My comeback is the larger working objective is, given the structure of the exercise technically, to block a hand strike with a kick, here a crescent kick. The working objective is to develop the ability to block an incoming punch with a crescent kick. So, the problem statement becomes how do you make the adjustments to do that? Here the attacker cooperated by stopping short of striking distance. Criticism aside, that then is the correct zone in which to kick. So the proper striking zone identified so was accomplished. That's what I learned.
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If the opponent had closed to punching contact distance, then I would be faced with another KIME. What to do, how to adjust to pull off, according to the structure of the exercise, a successful crescent kick. That's how i would look @ the exercise.
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On the follow up kick, of course it will be wrong under your scenario. For the technical working objective of the exercise, on how to actually block a punch with a crescent kick & follow up, it will be technically right.
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CONSIDER: There might be scenarios where a punch is thrown outside of contact range. Instead of getting fixated on the exact form of the attack, presumably a punch to the face as you noted, why not look at it as a striking motion on the part of the attacker. It might be a feint. It might be a hand waving with a stick or club. It might the grappler reaching forward for that takedown so many here have said is unstoppable (not in my book). Of course, it could be a mistake in timing & distance on the part of the attacker. It could be a distracting jab to be followed by a straight punch combo. that's how i look @ it. in a dynamic KIME way. So by the overriding principle of KIME, the physical attributes fall down in ranking and the exercise is still valuable.....
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So under KIME, we have some realism problems with the exercise as precisely shown. Attacker throws the punch outside of striking range. Several other working objectives, however, are met, if we think of 1-steps as KIME. I'll propose a solution in my next post....

 

[ShotoNoob]

#1. Ive also seen many Okinawan Karate and TKD/TSD practitioners here agree with me on this, distance and a realstic punch are the two most important factors.
#2. If youre training against something drastically different, you wont learn to defend yourself against a punch.
#3. Which is the entire point of one step.

#1. Yes. you know what style is notoriously often in agreement with your position? Shotokan. That's one of the big sins of Shotokan as often practiced, IMO. The Master I am currently working with was originally more along your lines. Until I started demonstrating to him otherwise.
It's better to work smart in traditional karate than maximize physical output. One of the huge lessons in kata.
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#2. Completely disagree. Learning to block a punch or any assault in traditional karate is a (your) mental discipline process. The physical action of your opponent only sets the stage for you to act physically--always controlled mentally.
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Your criticism is completely correct for McDojo practitioners who do karate with brain off. The when someone throws a real punch, their OFF-BRAIN can't react at all and they can't defend as you say. They get clocked.
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#3. To be correct, your final sentence should read, "Which is the entire APPLIED point of the one step." To be globally correct by traditional karate, the point of the one step is too develop the mental discipline that direct's your physical conditioning for choice of the proper tactic done in the proper way at the proper time that disables the opponent quickly & efficiently...

 

[ShotoNoob]

SO, GIVEN TONY D.'S CRITICISM OF TKD 1-STEP #1 / HOW DO WE FIX IT.
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I choose a Tang Soo Do 1-step illustration. Tang Soo Do, apparently patterned off of Shotokan, is somewhat more relaxed in practice it seems. Take a look at this "Super-Simpleton Karate:"

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There's no opponent here, so we have to do everything our self. Keeping with standard karate 1-step form, attacker steps in a punches to face--assume Tony that the puncher does this competently so defender must take action. What is defender's response?
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Defender doesn't stand still. Defender takes a step back (kinda of a side to back stance) to try to avoid getting hit. That's not all. Defender's defense is actually too pronged--left hand knifehand block, kind of a softer parry type of block.
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Once replanted in stance, counter upper cut to attacker's open tummy. Of course we have the same question that Tony raised, here the defender, is the uppercut in position to connect?
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The global 1-step answer is KIME.
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MMA Applicablity: Note the Tang Soo Do Master doesn't back peddle like Machida & Liddell, circle way out & around upon the attacker's approach. She does something quite different.
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PostNote: The defender's defense is actually 3-pronged. Moreover, there is a second tactical advantage, working objective achieved by her defensive posture which was also demonstrated yet not commented on in the 2 criticisms of my TKD crescent kick 1-step vid. Gee, not so "simpleton karate" after all....

 

[ShotoNoob]

THIS IS WHAT TRADITIONAL KARATE HAS TO OFFER. And it's not just knowing the physical.....

>Here's where I'm going (theatrics aside). These guys are driven by mental discipline. Their kata is not a physical gym routine. It's mind & body unison, with the mind exerting complete mental discipline over their physical actions....

 

[Drose427]

SO, GIVEN TONY D.'S CRITICISM OF TKD 1-STEP #1 / HOW DO WE FIX IT.
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I choose a Tang Soo Do 1-step illustration. Tang Soo Do, apparently patterned off of Shotokan, is somewhat more relaxed in practice it seems. Take a look at this "Super-Simpleton Karate:"

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There's no opponent here, so we have to do everything our self. Keeping with standard karate 1-step form, attacker steps in a punches to face--assume Tony that the puncher does this competently so defender must take action. What is defender's response?
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Defender doesn't stand still. Defender takes a step back (kinda of a side to back stance) to try to avoid getting hit. That's not all. Defender's defense is actually too pronged--left hand knifehand block, kind of a softer parry type of block.
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Once replanted in stance, counter upper cut to attacker's open tummy. Of course we have the same question that Tony raised, here the defender, is the uppercut in position to connect?
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The global 1-step answer is KIME.
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MMA Applicablity: Note the Tang Soo Do Master doesn't back peddle like Machida & Liddell, circle way out & around upon the attacker's approach. She does something quite different.
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PostNote: The defender's defense is actually 3-pronged. Moreover, there is a second tactical advantage, working objective achieved by her defensive posture which was also demonstrated yet not commented on in the 2 criticisms of my TKD crescent kick 1-step vid. Gee, not so "simpleton karate" after all....

Shes demonstrating one particular move, you really cant extrapolate the points you made from that.

You really have zero idea howd she move with an opponent in either free sparring or one step