Pepper/OC spray

[thardey]

So for all of the hype that pepper spray got a couple of years ago (now replaced by tazers, I guess) Interest in it has fazed out in general, and specifically among martial artists, it seems.

I never tried the stuff, since you can't carry it concealed where I live (a concealed handgun permit is just that -- you can only conceal a gun -- no other weapons.) But I've been wondering why it never caught on long-term.

A couple of reasons I've heard mentioned, but never discussed are these:
1. The amount in a key-chain sized spray isn't enough to be effective
2. The cloud of spray affects the defender as well as the attacker.
3. Pepper/OC spray isn't enough to stop a determined attacker.
4. It takes too long to deploy, aim, and use effectively.

Also, what are the legal issues regarding Pepper spray? In Oregon it's listed as a weapon -- could it be considered among lethal force weapons? Or is it in the category of "physical force"?

Any supporters/detractors of pepper spray?

Would it be useful in combination with other uses of force? Spray them with your left, then hit them with your right? Spray then run? Run then spray behind you?

Any thoughts?

 

[Drac]

1.The key chain size ones are a joke unless you get an attacker that is REALLY sensitive.

2. Yes, its called cross contamination..Meaning the user get a dose as well

3. There are some people that it doesn't affect..

4. I don't know about that statement..I carry it on duty in a snapped case and you be surprized how fast you can draw it with a little practice

I carry it( department regs) and if need be I will use it as a distarction so I can pull my baton and really go to work..

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

1.The key chain size ones are a joke unless you get an attacker that is REALLY sensitive.

2. Yes, its called cross contamination..Meaning the user get a dose as well

3. There are some people that it doesn't affect..

4. I don't know about that statement..I carry it on duty in a snapped case and you be surprized how fast you can draw it with a little practice

I carry it( department regs) and if need be I will use it as a distarction so I can pull my baton and really go to work..

This is all sound advice from the real world. Particularly the answer to number one.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I have a few problems with Pepper spray.

Its a fine powder projected by aerosol. It can easily be rendered ineffective by a strong wind. Working in close in essentially impossible because of cross contamination.

Its a weapon that requires some degree of accuracy to be effective. You basically need to hit a person in the head for it to work.

It has a max range of about 5m, reduced by adverse wind conditions.

And as Brian pointed out, it just doesn't work on some people.

You might be better off throwing the canister at an assailant.

 

[thardey]

1.The key chain size ones are a joke unless you get an attacker that is REALLY sensitive.

2. Yes, its called cross contamination..Meaning the user get a dose as well

3. There are some people that it doesn't affect..

4. I don't know about that statement..I carry it on duty in a snapped case and you be surprized how fast you can draw it with a little practice

I carry it( department regs) and if need be I will use it as a distarction so I can pull my baton and really go to work..

#1. seems like it should be discussed more often -- I can think of many women I've known who carry a keychain spray who put a lot of faith in it, because it's "Pepper spray".

#4 Was from a complaint that it's hard to know what direction the spray was pointing without looking (referring to the keychain spray, IIRC). You're as likely to turn the thing around and douse yourself.

Thank you very much -- that pretty much answers my questions!

 

[thardey]

You might be better off throwing the canister at an assailant.

:lol:

 

[Drac]

##4 Was from a complaint that it's hard to know what direction the spray was pointing without looking (referring to the keychain spray, IIRC). You're as likely to turn the thing around and douse yourself.Thank you very much -- that pretty much answers my questions!

:lol:

It's true..A copper I know was in a struggle with an intox ..He managed to reach OC Spray and point it at the perp and give himself a face full..talk about a bad day...The version I carry in the township has a extended nozzle and it take only a sec to finger it to insure that I am not the reciever..

 

[jks9199]

#1. seems like it should be discussed more often -- I can think of many women I've known who carry a keychain spray who put a lot of faith in it, because it's "Pepper spray".

#4 Was from a complaint that it's hard to know what direction the spray was pointing without looking (referring to the keychain spray, IIRC). You're as likely to turn the thing around and douse yourself.

Thank you very much -- that pretty much answers my questions!

OC is generally less than lethal force. It's an irritant and a distractant. It's not always reliable; people who are drunk or high or just plain mean enough don't necessarily feel it's effects or mind them. My first on-duty encounter was with a guy one of my partners had sprayed full on in the face, and the guy kept fighting. Only long after he was in custody and calming down did he feel the pepper.

That said -- it's got it's place. It might buy a person a few seconds to get away. If you're going to carry it, get something that you can feel the direction it's pointed; my work canister has a flap that I have to move to get at the trigger button. The flap doesn't open until it's facing the right way.
The commonly available keychains often don't have enough in quantity or in Scoffield Heat Units or concentration of OC to be very effective.

 

[Carol]

#1. seems like it should be discussed more often -- I can think of many women I've known who carry a keychain spray who put a lot of faith in it, because it's "Pepper spray".

#4 Was from a complaint that it's hard to know what direction the spray was pointing without looking (referring to the keychain spray, IIRC). You're as likely to turn the thing around and douse yourself.

Thank you very much -- that pretty much answers my questions!

That's the biggest drawback to it - many folks think it's something where you can press a magic button and *poof* all your problems go away.

Legally, states vary widely on OC spray and its use. In NH a person can buy it at a convenience store.

 

[tellner]

Wind, rain, blowback and mist can completely neutralize it. Some people aren't sensitive. Others are but are pissed off enough to continue on anyway. And guess what? If you get hosed with Alaska Breath Freshener you experience an allergic reaction (hence the inflamation). What does your body do? It dumps adrenaline. Congratulations. Your attacker is now stronger, faster and more impervious to pain.

On the other hand it works great for subduing people who are "non-violent but non-compliant" or who are already handcuffed.

It might be a weapon, but it's ****ing stupid to rely on it in any sort of deadly force situation. It is absolutely not effective against someone who is really motivated unless you literally stuff the canister into his mouth and empty it down the gullet. Every OC training course I've taken or heard about has a part where you experience fighting through it. The studies are out there. The real world experience is out there.

I've made at least one enemy on the Beaverton Police Force by challenging him in front of a group. He was talking about how effective the stuff was with S-patterns and stepping off and so on. He was, incidentally also pimping his own "civilian" training course. I offered "You get the pepper spray. I get this little knife. Five bucks a cut, ten bucks a stab, no more than a thousand dollars."

 

[KenpoTex]

I think OC has its place...not as a weapon, but as a distraction or control device. It would be STUPID to rely on it in a situation where you are in serious danger because it takes time to work, may not work on some people, and can...will cross-contaminate (trust me on this one ). For civilian use, I think its primary value is as a means of dealing with someone being aggressive/beligerant, but not yet combative (i.e. not time to shoot them yet). For example, someone who advances after your command to back off but has not yet presented a threat that would justify "deadly force."

Here are two great articles/threads on pepper spray that discuss the terminology and different types available. You have to register to read the second one but it's worth it...lots of good info.

http://www.tacticalresponse.com/media/articles/pepper.php

http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2545

 

[Josh Oakley]

Pepper spray has it's uses:

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