jobo
Grandmaster
thats one of the reasons i drifted away from tkd, they put an over emphersis on something that was largely irrelevant to actualy fighting
Patterns with high kicks that students can't do
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There is a distinct difference between static and dynamic stretching abilities. I can barely touch my toes (at my best, could, but not impressively), and have never gotten anywhere near a split. I can still, when warmed up, kick at head level with some kicks, and could probably get my others back up there with some work.
But I've worked with some folks who could not. They weren't dealing with the same kind of tightness I deal with. I'd never (I think) be able to develop a split - possibly couldn't have done so even in my 20's - but I have good range of motion. Some folks have a truly abbreviated ROM that can be increased, but will never approach those kicking heights.
jobo
Grandmaster
i think its probebly true for anybody who isnt doing flexability/ mobility work, that they can improve their mobility, which is what you need rather than flexibility,
but i know from my own hard exsperiance that just working very hard at it tops out a long way short of head kicks .
but you are still a long way above those that dont, and as ive stressed in my posts, does this infact matter beyond an arbitrary requirements in some arts,
Any normal human can achieve the full side splits according to studies. It can take as much as a year of dedicated practise, which is why people have a perception of it as unique.
Also, any normal human can kick to his/hers own jaw. If you can stretch out your legs two feet to the side in a split position. (which 99.9% can) . You can do a high kick, regardless of anything else.
jobo
Grandmaster
would you care to define normal? and post a link to the study, id love to see this 99.9 % bit
its not hard and not uncommon for people to quote scientfic reseach that they havent understood, havent actually read beyond the first line or two or just complely made up
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Can Everyone Do The Splits?
Thomas Kurz, the author of Stretching Scientifically: A Guide to Flexibility Training (2), says that it’s a misconception to think that most people are physically incapable of doing the splits. Kurz says “for the great majority of people the structure of joints and the length of ligaments are not an obstacle for doing splits.”
Hips: Coxa Vara
One exception that would prevent you from getting the splits is a condition called Coxa vara. Coxa vara is a structural deformity in the hips defined by “a decreased angle between the head and neck of the femur and its shaft” (3). The normal range for hip rotation is ~125 degrees, whereas people with Coxa vara have a more limited range of rotation (<125 degrees). It is also possible to have this condition only on one side.
There are also people with Coxa valga who can rotate beyond the normal hip range. For these individuals, it may be easier to train for the splits.
Can Everyone Do The Splits?
Thomas Kurz, the author of Stretching Scientifically: A Guide to Flexibility Training (2), says that it’s a misconception to think that most people are physically incapable of doing the splits. Kurz says “for the great majority of people the structure of joints and the length of ligaments are not an obstacle for doing splits.”
Hips: Coxa Vara
One exception that would prevent you from getting the splits is a condition called Coxa vara. Coxa vara is a structural deformity in the hips defined by “a decreased angle between the head and neck of the femur and its shaft” (3). The normal range for hip rotation is ~125 degrees, whereas people with Coxa vara have a more limited range of rotation (<125 degrees). It is also possible to have this condition only on one side.
There are also people with Coxa valga who can rotate beyond the normal hip range. For these individuals, it may be easier to train for the splits.
Here's a side by side between static and dynamic flexibility for those who think there is any correlation
.
You should still work to improve static because it will make you kick high without having to rely on forward momentum. In other words, much less effort. So my job isn't done.. But right now...
Static
Dynamic
.You should still work to improve static because it will make you kick high without having to rely on forward momentum. In other words, much less effort. So my job isn't done.. But right now...
Static
Dynamic
Attachments
jobo
Grandmaster
you said " normal"" study "and" 99 9%."[
Can Everyone Do The Splits?
Thomas Kurz, the author of Stretching Scientifically: A Guide to Flexibility Training (2), says that it’s a misconception to think that most people are physically incapable of doing the splits. Kurz says “for the great majority of people the structure of joints and the length of ligaments are not an obstacle for doing splits.”
Hips: Coxa Vara
One exception that would prevent you from getting the splits is a condition called Coxa vara. Coxa vara is a structural deformity in the hips defined by “a decreased angle between the head and neck of the femur and its shaft” (3). The normal range for hip rotation is ~125 degrees, whereas people with Coxa vara have a more limited range of rotation (<125 degrees). It is also possible to have this condition only on one side.
There are also people with Coxa valga who can rotate beyond the normal hip range. For these individuals, it may be easier to train for the splits.
i cant see any mention of any of those, its just an opinion piece, by someone with a book to sell
did you just imagine the bits you said were there
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Coxa Vara is a rare condition of the hip, affecting around 1 in 25,000 children, with either hip: boys and girls being equally affected.
1 in 25,0000 =.004%
jobo
Grandmaster
you said STUDY, do you have a scientific study to back up your claims or not
its an easy question?
if you mis spoke and you meant to say i read some claim by a random bloke, then say that, it one or the other
No I don't have it and I won't dig it up either. And it was not based on him but he does explain why there is no limitations in a human body with no condition.
jobo
Grandmaster
thats alright mate, dont let not having scientific data stop you from claiming you have.
he may be correct with his hips thing, but that not the issue
you claimed 99.9 of people could do the splits, there are other far more complex issues in why people can and cant than just hip flexation,
Such as?
jobo
Grandmaster
muscle spacsticity thats not clearly understood by science let a lone me, go and have a read
8n essence
its tied to your central nervious system and the receptors in the muscle, at both extrems its a reconnised disability, inbetween their a contimum across the population in just how far your muscles will stretch,
i have no data, to show that the mean average can or cant do the spits, but im not claiming that i have, just thats its complicated by other thibgs than hip rotation
The key bit there is "normal". Some folks have actual abnormalities in their hips that don't allow it.
As to the studies, I'd have to look at the population they studied. I've known some folks who I doubt daily work with a stretching coach could get them there in a year, as diligent work several times a week made little progress over time. That may be an age thing, though, and many studies are flawed because the easiest group to study (since many studies are conducted by universities) is young people.
I can't speak for them but I do know that dynamic flexibility works very similar to muscle memory. Flexibility is partly mental. your mind can tell you that a certain movement is foreign and not normal, and steer you towards bad mechanics even though you have the capacity. Then once that command has been overwritten you never lose it, even if you stop stretching.
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It's also "one condition", meaning there may be others.
That last sentence is not entirely accurate. Injury can cause that system (I don't recall the correct name for it) to stop movement at a point that was once was easy.
Pretty much loses flexibility as they age. I've never seen an exception, though I expect some exist.
We had a guy training Jujitsu with us for many years. He was paralyzed from the waist down. This meant that he had no movement in his hips, or anything below. He would put on leg braces than held is legs straight and then used crutches to get around. Needless to say, Japanese Jujitsu has a bunch of standing throws. He had to learn different ways to do those throws. No amount of stretching or dedication was going to make his legs work. Uchi mata, and hane goshi were not going to be the same for him as for other folks. Now, he did learn how to throw, and even how to do hip throws. It was a challenge for us and him to figure out how and what he would do for the different throws and other standing techniques.
When it came time for him to test, a technique was called, and he did his version of the technique. Then he had to explain why what he did was the technique called. He would explain how other people did the technique and what principles in that technique he was focusing on. Then he would explain and or show, where what he did practiced or used that same principle. Then other students of his current rank and lower would demonstrate the art. He would give them feedback and help them to improve in doing the art the way most folks do. He advanced in rank, even though he could not and will never be able to do certain techniques, in the way other people do.
(Note: He could do the splits quit easily. He would sit on the ground with his legs in their braces and grab a fist full of pant leg above his knee and put his legs into as much splits as you wanted him to... and then some... still could never kick head high though)
When dealing with people who are not able to do techniques the same way, I think this is a decent model for how work with them. They are expanding the things they can do. They are also spending a bunch of time understanding what people are supposed to be doing and supposed to be getting in a technique. And then learning how to help other people be better at their own technique. In fact, I think we should all take this kind of process when studying a technique, whether we can do the technique or not.
When it came time for him to test, a technique was called, and he did his version of the technique. Then he had to explain why what he did was the technique called. He would explain how other people did the technique and what principles in that technique he was focusing on. Then he would explain and or show, where what he did practiced or used that same principle. Then other students of his current rank and lower would demonstrate the art. He would give them feedback and help them to improve in doing the art the way most folks do. He advanced in rank, even though he could not and will never be able to do certain techniques, in the way other people do.
(Note: He could do the splits quit easily. He would sit on the ground with his legs in their braces and grab a fist full of pant leg above his knee and put his legs into as much splits as you wanted him to... and then some... still could never kick head high though)
When dealing with people who are not able to do techniques the same way, I think this is a decent model for how work with them. They are expanding the things they can do. They are also spending a bunch of time understanding what people are supposed to be doing and supposed to be getting in a technique. And then learning how to help other people be better at their own technique. In fact, I think we should all take this kind of process when studying a technique, whether we can do the technique or not.
Injuries can undermine anything, that goes without saying. The point is that you will not revert back to beginner mechanics even if you lay off for a full year and even though your flexibility has decreased. There are things that will obviously degrade like balance, power, control, height, etc but the fundamentals will be there because that's what your body last time around had been programmed to do.
Rewiring martial arts body mechanics takes about 3 weeks of non-stop feeding of the new system., assuming you don't mix in the things you did before. Power in the new mechanics will lag behind a few more weeks or months because the body does not have strength in doing it the new way.
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