Patterns with high kicks that students can't do

[drop bear]

well does it matter?
there is no way on earth im ever going to kick at head level, unless they are vertically challenged, ( i mean really small)

should thhat stop me from progessing if i can smash their thigh up good.

its a genuine question, clearly i think not, its a fightibg art, if i can hit them and hurt them then its goal accomplished,

added to, i really wouldnt do it even if i could, its far to easy to catch the leg, or take the standing leg, i can do that with people being needlessly flash, im sure lots of people could do it to me

It is forms, not fighting. So you have different priorities.

 

[Buka]

Normal. yes. Normal defines to a standard, an expected standard.

Around eighty-five percent of my students could kick you in the head, at will, with either foot. (he says proudly) But what about the other ones? The ones who did not have the normal capabilities no matter how much they stretched? What's one to do with those folks?

You train them in Martial Arts and teach them to fight to the best of their ability. You teach them how to beat people in a fight regardless of flexibility. And in some ways, they become better and smarter fighters. Several reasons for this - they get better because they HAVE to in order to survive in the dojo. They get smarter because they HAVE to figure out ways to beat superior flexibility and athleticism - which leads to more choices and weapons that the more flexible fighter has.

Two of my students in particular, two that I learned a lot from, always used to say, "I'm not here to earn a Black Belt, I'm here to learn how to beat Black Belts."

Eventually, after a long time, they did earn the rank of Black - which neither one of them wanted. I told them, "Yeah, you like to play the underdog who can't head kick, beating visiting Black Belts on a regular basis. (We had an open visiting policy for sparring) It was a nice shtick - but time to get a new one."

Visiting Black belts used to watch classes, and would usually pick those two as ones they felt safest fighting against, because those two couldn't kick easily to the head, if at all. And both had great control so the visitors felt safe. And it always turned out the same way. The visitors would get smoked.

 

[dvcochran]

well no, its not,

its my engineering back ground i supose,
if you doing tkd just for the reason of saying your a black belt in tkd, then i suppose it matters, maybe, , but why us the requirment there in the first place, its complely arbitrary and in no way ties to an overall performance standard, it the equivelent of putting go faster stripes on your car or one of them silly wings and the car club saying no stripes no silly wing you cant be member, which is more or less true as a requirment, , turn up with a normal looking car that goes like stink and youl not join, coz, well somebody with a silly wing said so

the car with the silly wing might also go like hell, but thats not because of the silly wing

if i was teaching someone, who insisted on throwing high kicks at me id say," dont do that, coz three times out of 10 your going to end up on the floor, " and yes i know there are exceptional athletes, whos kick i wont see comming, but not many of them

I do appreciate the engineering background. I am a lifetime EE with 2 Master degrees.
I was simply referring to promotion in a given style. It would be near on impossible for me a TKD, Kali, and a smidge of Kung Fu guy to test for BB in Muay Thai without an amount of practice in that field. Yes, there are overlaps in almost every style but not fully comprehensive across the spectrum.
It would be like me an EE arguing with a NE about fission. I would loose every time.

 

[dvcochran]

I could never do any of those things and I can still kick high

Not at all certain what your point is.

 

[dvcochran]

Running, if you only stretch for running, can result in some very strong limits around the hips that may not be correctible after a point. I'm convinced that's where some of my limits came from.

We did consider that. Both men kept running races but not at the frequency they were before they started training. One man gained good flexibility over time, the other never did. That is why I say I feel it was genetic or something along those lines.

 

[Acronym]

Normal. yes. Normal defines to a standard, an expected standard.

Around eighty-five percent of my students could kick you in the head, at will, with either foot. (he says proudly) But what about the other ones? The ones who did not have the normal capabilities no matter how much they stretched? What's one to do with those folks?

You train them in Martial Arts and teach them to fight to the best of their ability. You teach them how to beat people in a fight regardless of flexibility. And in some ways, they become better and smarter fighters. Several reasons for this - they get better because they HAVE to in order to survive in the dojo. They get smarter because they HAVE to figure out ways to beat superior flexibility and athleticism - which leads to more choices and weapons that the more flexible fighter has.

Two of my students in particular, two that I learned a lot from, always used to say, "I'm not here to earn a Black Belt, I'm here to learn how to beat Black Belts."

Eventually, after a long time, they did earn the rank of Black - which neither one of them wanted. I told them, "Yeah, you like to play the underdog who can't head kick, beating visiting Black Belts on a regular basis. (We had an open visiting policy for sparring) It was a nice shtick - but time to get a new one."

Visiting Black belts used to watch classes, and would usually pick those two as ones they felt safest fighting against, because those two couldn't kick easily to the head, if at all. And both had great control so the visitors felt safe. And it always turned out the same way. The visitors would get smoked.

I have no reservations about students who don't kick head height in class, that's entirely up to them. The problem is if the curriculum states that you are supposed to kick head height for a certain grade, and the student doesn't. What's the purpose of the curriculum if you don't follow it? Might as well grade them without a test then.

 

[Acronym]

Not at all certain what your point is.

That static flexibility is a poor marker for what those people you wrote about are capable of dynamically if they put in the work

 

[dvcochran]

I have no reservations about students who don't kick head height in class, that's entirely up to them. The problem is if the curriculum states that you are supposed to kick head height for a certain grade, and the student doesn't. What's the purpose of the curriculum if you don't follow it? Might as well grade them without a test then.

At the end of the day 'height' is not the real qualifier. This said from an Olympic circuit competitor. You are making a determination based on a requirement from a martial Sport extension of TKD; that is not at all conclusive for TKD as a whole. That is an all too common mistake made these days.
Sometimes ignorance isn't so bliss.

 

[dvcochran]

That static flexibility is a poor marker for what those people you wrote about are capable of dynamically if they put in the work

I assure they were working harder than most the younger people in the Dojang. And they were more fit overall than almost all everyone there. It was just a different kind of fitness.
Like I said, one runner did gain flexibility the other did not. I am certain it was genetic or along those lines. It certainly was Not from a lack of effort.

 

[Acronym]

At the end of the day 'height' is not the real qualifier. This said from an Olympic circuit competitor. You are making a determination based on a requirement from a martial Sport extension of TKD; that is not at all conclusive for TKD as a whole. That is an all too common mistake made these days.
Sometimes ignorance isn't so bliss.

No it isn't. Sport has nothing to do with grading.

 

[Acronym]

I assure they were working harder than most the younger people in the Dojang. And they were more fit overall than almost all everyone there. It was just a different kind of fitness.
Like I said, one runner did gain flexibility the other did not. I am certain it was genetic or along those lines. It certainly was Not from a lack of effort.

And you seriously claim they made no progress in their flexibility? Why would they be anatomically wired differently than the rest of the population? I find it hard to believe that you have two students or whatever it was, in the same class, having the condition that affects 1 in 25K

 

[Flying Crane]

I have no reservations about students who don't kick head height in class, that's entirely up to them. The problem is if the curriculum states that you are supposed to kick head height for a certain grade, and the student doesn't. What's the purpose of the curriculum if you don't follow it? Might as well grade them without a test then.

Are you teaching students and grading them?

If not, maybe it just isn’t your call to make.

 

[Flying Crane]

No it isn't. Sport has nothing to do with grading.

Except when it is.

 

[jobo]

I do appreciate the engineering background. I am a lifetime EE with 2 Master degrees.
I was simply referring to promotion in a given style. It would be near on impossible for me a TKD, Kali, and a smidge of Kung Fu guy to test for BB in Muay Thai without an amount of practice in that field. Yes, there are overlaps in almost every style but not fully comprehensive across the spectrum.
It would be like me an EE arguing with a NE about fission. I would loose every time.

i dont think your catching my engineering point

its form and function , asthetics have value, but not first in engineering, does it work reliability is the first question, can we make it p,retty comes later, does making it pretty stop it workibg reliably, yes,oh better rethink that, then

its not about graded in another style, its about if the style you do is effective and are there eliments that are there for artistic reasons that effect that

high kicking is a high risk eliment, as pretty as it looks

 

[dvcochran]

No it isn't. Sport has nothing to do with grading.

Um, yea; that is pretty much what I just said.

 

[Acronym]

Um, yea; that is pretty much what I just said.

No You said: You are making a determination based on a requirement from a martial Sport extension of TKD;

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have no reservations about students who don't kick head height in class, that's entirely up to them. The problem is if the curriculum states that you are supposed to kick head height for a certain grade, and the student doesn't. What's the purpose of the curriculum if you don't follow it? Might as well grade them without a test then.

Firstly, that's not curriculum, that's testing standards. IMO, those standards are a guideline for making sure a result is achieved. Ask yourself what the purpose is of testing to that standard. If the purpose is that the style cannot be the same style without that kick, then it's probably a reasonable approach not to grade them. If the purpose for that standard is to push people to achieve what they can (and most people can achieve that standard), then it should be adjusted to achieve that purpose with folks who cannot reasonably meet it.

It's all about knowing the purpose of what you're testing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And you seriously claim they made no progress in their flexibility? Why would they be anatomically wired differently than the rest of the population? I find it hard to believe that you have two students or whatever it was, in the same class, having the condition that affects 1 in 25K

I don't think you actually read his post before replying.

 

[dvcochran]

No You said: You are making a determination based on a requirement from a martial Sport extension of TKD;

Yep, and all the other stuff I said along with that.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Are you saying you do not take into consideration the motion(s) After leg extension? We emphasize that the return/back motion is just as important as the forward (with/without rotation) motion.
I think we can agree most (not all) kicks in form pattern end with a step forward but the recovery/technique of that step is very important for more reasons than just ending up in a good stance.

I do not understand the initial comment >>>>Are you saying you do not take into consideration the motion(s) After leg extension? << As an aside the kicks are to be done with good balance in patterns and when I first learned how strict this was in the the kick is to be retracted, balance maintained an then step down I thought it as a lot of wasted time and motion but later considered it a good training tool so people did not "Fall Into": the stance following the kick. Hope than makes sense.