Passing the Torch

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

Some secret part of me hopes things won't degenerate into yet another contest regarding authenticity and legitimacy. My focus was more along the lines of how we are going to pass the traditions that we hand along to the next generation in such a manner as to have THEM pass those traditions along as respected institutions to the NEXT genration after that. To my eye it seems that the next generation seems so easily distracted from one fad-ish activity to another. I would hate to lose the KMA to ever increasing interest in Reality TV programs or Computer Games. I continue to represent the arts I practice as more than just kicking and punching and throwing but sometimes it seems like a losing battle when prospective students have unnatural expectancies for what the KMA are about. Ya know? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Upset? No, not me, I am very confident in the material I know.

Simple, Choi spent 30 years in Japan, he came back to Korea and taught what he learned there - never trained in Korea. He settled on Hapkido as the name for his art (all his certificates say Hapkido) - therefore we are "beholden" (?) to the Japanese. I, personally, feel only beholden to Choi for his efforts - some of you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to Korea-fy this thing (rather desperately) instead of just taking it for what it is.

On passing the torch, my own dojang has a very set pecking order and a pretty strong line of succession - so I'm pretty secure there.

For now, I return to the dojang...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[American HKD]

Greeting

As I said before I respect all traditions.

Peace!!

 

[Master Todd Miller]

There have been a number of oral traditions that have been demonstrated to be blatant fabrications.

What is the scource? There is alot of hear say in Hapkido for sure and many cannot back claims with fact.

The name DRAJJ was not used until after Choi was back in Korea! Yawara,Yu Sool, Hapki Yu Sool, Hapki Yu Kwon Sool or Hapkido for short! Choi used Hapkido when refering to what he taught towards the end of his life.

Bottom line is there are different styles being taught here they are NOT the same. I for one like to research different ways of practice to help me keep perspective.

Thoughts

Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
wwwmillersmudo.com

 

[kwanjang]

...I try every day to practice the way I was taught. I practice and teach traditional Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do. The forms are different, but the actions and mindset are the same. I firmly believe the farther away you get from the root, the weaker your style. The further you deviate from what the Founder taught, the weaker you will be in terms of technique, basics, form, philosophy etc.

Sorry for being away for a bit folks. Seems I missed the fun As I see it, change is inevitable over time, else we would still be throwing rocks at each other. Even GM Choi himself did not teach what he learned. By all accounts, he taught a different art than DRAJJ. TKD has the same problems (if you call that a problem, I don't). I dare say that every Master makes the techniques he learns fit his own personality; if not, he is not doing the best for himself. Example. I am 6'7 (and shrinking, and my Instructors all were no where around the five foot something mark. To do the techniques their way is ludicrous for me. Hate to say it, but the way MI feels we should train just does not work for everyone folks. On the other hand, I do agree with him on trying to keep the art as pure as we can, and this means we must keep even those techniques that do not work for us personally.

 

[Disco]

Unless someone practices the same exact everything that was first adopted by the founder, then you have deviated from the so-called pure art. You can follow the concepts of what makes the discipline, but internally it will be or should be in a constant state of adaptation. As Rudy stated, he had no choice but to re-define techniques to fit him. Does that make what he practices any less then what the founder of his particular style started? It shouldn't, because the founder had to get his training from someone and as sure as the day turns into night, he changed/adapted things to suit him. And so it goes from master to student.

Now as Michigan TKD said, "I firmly believe the farther away you get from the root, the weaker your style". I think were talking about two seperate issues here, so could you define "away from the root". I'm not really sure what you mean.

Rudy you said, "I do agree with him on trying to keep the art as pure as we can".Care to embellish on what you feel "pure" is, cause it looks like we may be in a catch 22 here. :asian:

 

[Black Belt FC]

Just dropped by to the see the progress of this debate “Passing the torch”. I don’t think that debating about what’s true root to far root will insure the future success of Hapkido, the future lies in instructors who can firmly teach solid techniques that can be utilizes by everyone. I agreed with Kwanjang “every Master makes the techniques he learns fit his own personality” I certainly over the years consciously adhere to techniques that best suit my body sphere.



I try my best to teach techniques that can be effectively and easily adaptive by all students whether young, old, tall or short. Ultimately the techniques must be effective and must work effortlessly. For the most part I limit the total amount of steps require to execute wristlocks and takedowns to three actions.



Rather than debating what is pure and what is not we should focus our energy into finding ways to attract and keeping new students. I’m not saying that it’s not important but if the art is to survive we must make a collective effort to polish our teaching presentation so that most students (the ones not crazy about being thrown) stay in class. When students leave Hapkido practice for wherever reason the art in whole suffers. No amount of debate will help keep a student interested if they’re mortified by the instruction; there’s no future in an empty training hall pure root or not.

Lugo

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Lugo, Rudy, et al:

As most of you know I tend to take a more traditional point of view on things. The danger with this as I see it is that I could become dogmatic (and maybe a little lazy) in advocating a particular take on things. To compensate for this I work to attend as many varied approaches to Hapkido material as I can. There is no doubt that there is much variance in the arts depending on when someone trained with Choi, what addittional material they mixed in and what their motives have been. Though I am very traditional with the Kwan I belong to I push my students to stay tolerant of other peoples take on things hoping that the overall effect will be a strengthening of the arts. So far the only real barrier I have run into is the defensiveness that seems to relate to any one person wanting to protect his "turf" against encroachment from an outsider trying to recruit in "his" area. I have not found any good way to address this, and maybe there really isn't one. I don't know. I know that for myself this is a regular issue with my college classes and I regularly have to make little announcements not to have continuing ed students recruiting for their "home" schools while attending my classes.

As far as purity or authenticity of Hapkido material I think this begins to sound like those recovering smokers or alcoholics who have suddenly "found religion" (if you know what I mean). In some ways I think that later generations have been caught in a trick bag regarding Hapkido in that there have been so many traditions stemming from Choi yet such a wide variety of material yet all use Choi to authenticate what they do. As far as "korea-fying" an art. I am just not sure where people come down with that. If the art is Japanese then I say lets study the Japanese art. If the art is Korean than lets give Korean traditions their due. If we are going to pass on a tradition to the next generation aren't we making things just that much more difficult by waffling back-&-forth to make the Hapkido arts some nebulous "in-between-cultures" art? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

... As Rudy stated, he had no choice but to re-define techniques to fit him. Does that make what he practices any less then what the founder of his particular style started? It shouldn't, because the founder had to get his training from someone and as sure as the day turns into night, he changed/adapted things to suit him. And so it goes from master to student.

Now as Michigan TKD said, "I firmly believe the farther away you get from the root, the weaker your style". I think were talking about two seperate issues here, so could you define "away from the root". I'm not really sure what you mean.

Rudy you said, "I do agree with him on trying to keep the art as pure as we can".Care to embellish on what you feel "pure" is, cause it looks like we may be in a catch 22 here. :asian:

Disco et all:
As I mentioned, I HAD to make changes to make the techniques fit my body and lifestyle (just like you change the location of the mirror and seat in your car when someone else has driven it). Still the same car, still know how to drive it just fine, but it is safe and much more efficient doing it MY way. Have I changed the car in any way... I don't think so. I merely made the vehicle (in this case Hap Ki Do) fit it for my best use. I can't think of any founder who would object to that.

I guess what I mean by "pure" (if there is such a thing), I simply mean NOT to add a bunch of unrelated and ill fitting techniques to the art I am learning.

 

[Martial Tucker]

Disco et all:
As I mentioned, I HAD to make changes to make the techniques fit my body and lifestyle (just like you change the location of the mirror and seat in your car when someone else has driven it). Still the same car, still know how to drive it just fine, but it is safe and much more efficient doing it MY way. Have I changed the car in any way... I don't think so. I merely made the vehicle (in this case Hap Ki Do) fit it for my best use. I can't think of any founder who would object to that.

I guess what I mean by "pure" (if there is such a thing), I simply mean NOT to add a bunch of unrelated and ill fitting techniques to the art I am learning.

I've only been studying for about 8 years, so I may not really be qualified to discuss in-depth about the passing of an art from founder to descendants with varying interpretations/adaptations of techniques. But, I would logically tend to agree with GM Timmerman in his view on this.

I would compare it to someone who writes a song that becomes a hit. Others will come along and perform their version/arrangement of the same song, but you still know what song it is when you hear it. You might like one artists version more than another's, or you may prefer the original version. Fine, that's your personal preference. But, as I said, it's still the same song.
I think I read that "Yesterday" is the most recorded song in history. Think of how many versions you've heard on the radio, in elevators, wherever. But you still know the song as soon as you hear it, and if you're like me, you immediately associate it with Paul McCartney.

 

[Disco]

Rudy, Tucker and Lugo, were all on the same page here. Nice analogies by the way gentlemen. artyon:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

Taking those analogies a step farther, though, raises some interesting questions. A lot of people HAVE recorded "Yesterday", but how does one make sure that the original spirit of that piece is preserved? Making a larger set, consider not just a single piece, but what of the larger family of "Rock&Roll"? As I write this I am remembering a program I watched last night in which Special Force (SEALS) individuals were dropping out of the Elite Forces because despite all of their constant training only a very small percentage ever get to actually use the training they continually polish. Somewhere lurking under the surface I seem to be hearing the same sort of thing in Hapkido. People agree that contant training including the pain, injury, dedication and repetition are all necessary. I wonder if folks tend to cut short their KMA careers in Hapkido because a look down the road shows that the average practitioner will never actually get to use all the polishing that they are accruing. Take away competition and demonstrations, take away a lifestyle with a high frequency of combat such as security work or law enforcement and will the typical man-on-the-street have the kind of Character that allows him to invest himself in an activty which can only serve to toughen his Spirit? Can people be found who will do just THIS much let alone pass the activity on to another generation? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Will the typical man-on-the-street have the kind of Character that allows him to invest himself in an activty which can only serve to toughen his Spirit? Can people be found who will do just THIS much let alone pass the activity on to another generation? Thoughts?

Bruce, very insightful question. My answer to it and this is nothing more than my personal opinion, would be that the percentage of people willing to follow this path is very very low and getting even lower as the new generations come forward. I feel it stems from the overall attitude of society. An example if I may. Overheard an older gentleman in an auto parts store question the young store manager on service requirements. He was more than a little annoyed when he is being waited on, when the person waiting on him just left him standing in front of the counter with his money in hand, to jump thru a hoop to answer the phone and service the person on the phone. The manager said that was corp policy. I see a similar mode of conduct when going to fast food rest. They will bend over backwards to service the drive thru, while people can be lined up 4 or 5 deep at the counter. I don't honestly know what to call that mindset, but it seems to be prevalent in the 35 and under group. These may be the same people who would be the next in line to head some organizations. Combine whatever that thought process is with the overall ambivalence to hard work, sweat, discomfort, along with the prospects of being able to buy and pose rank, and we are left with a blueprint for ??????? Granted, there will always be that sub grouping of hardcore practicioners, but that group is also growing smaller.

I think that we have only one more time left to pass on the art(s) and after that I feel it's all going downhill. The true Masters are in their late 60's, 70's and 80's. When they leave, I see only half of what's handed down maintaining. The next hand down will result in less than half of the half. Perhaps this is the natural course of action that must be taken for the arts in general to have a rebirth in the future. The arts in general are only children in a sense in this country. It's only been 60 years or so that we have embraced them and look what has happened in that short time span. Our culture here is too diverse, fast paced and technically orientated.

Perhaps we are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Instead of trying to contain or maintain the arts in the older ideology, perhaps we should allow them to evolve in conjuntion with the current lifestyles.

 

[Martial Tucker]

Dear Mike:

Taking those analogies a step farther, though, raises some interesting questions. A lot of people HAVE recorded "Yesterday", but how does one make sure that the original spirit of that piece is preserved? Making a larger set, consider not just a single piece, but what of the larger family of "Rock&Roll"? As I write this I am remembering a program I watched last night in which Special Force (SEALS) individuals were dropping out of the Elite Forces because despite all of their constant training only a very small percentage ever get to actually use the training they continually polish. Somewhere lurking under the surface I seem to be hearing the same sort of thing in Hapkido. People agree that contant training including the pain, injury, dedication and repetition are all necessary. I wonder if folks tend to cut short their KMA careers in Hapkido because a look down the road shows that the average practitioner will never actually get to use all the polishing that they are accruing. Take away competition and demonstrations, take away a lifestyle with a high frequency of combat such as security work or law enforcement and will the typical man-on-the-street have the kind of Character that allows him to invest himself in an activty which can only serve to toughen his Spirit? Can people be found who will do just THIS much let alone pass the activity on to another generation? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Thought provoking points, as usual Bruce.....I think your last question sums up the problem well. It all comes down to what do people REALLY want?
Getting back to the "Yesterday" analogy, you and I may agree that the McCartney version is the only version worthy to be in our personal music collections. But, if no one else seems to like that version anymore, it tends to fade from popular exposure. Then, if Eminem comes along and does a bastardized version that we both hate, and it sells millions of copies, what can we do about it? Unfortunately, the demand of the consumer has spoken.
That's similar to what I see going on in TKD today.

Getting to your other point about people losing interest in training if they think they'll never get to use their skills, I guess I would say good riddance to someone who gets upset that they never get to "trash some Bozo", to quote the old Cheech & Chong TKD parody. Call me idealistic and/or unrealistic, but those people came into the arts for the wrong reason, and I think the arts are better off without them. I've seen guys like that quit as soon as they reach 1st dan, as they assume they've learned all they need to know and move on.
So getting back to my point, while we may be evangelists for our traditions,
we can't force people to come in to our tents if it doesnt fit their lifestyle.
And unfortunately, the lifestyle choices I see the vast majority of people make today don't have a lot in common with tradition, or hard work.

As for the SEALS, I have more sympathy for their viewpoint. They sign up to fight as their first priority. BTW, if you are interested in a SEAL warriors viewpoint and training, I highly recommend a pair of books by Dick Couch, a Viet Nam era SEAL. The first is called "The Warrior Elite" and is about the BUD/S training in an observer's diary format. The second book/sequel is called "The Finishing School" which details all of the rigorous training they go through between surviving BUD/S and being deployed in an actual combat platoon. The two books together are both fascinating and inspiring to anyone with a warrior mentality.

 

[kwanjang]

Jerry:
and a great song it is Thanks for making a good comparison on how I feel, I sometimes don't express myself well enough for folks to understand what I mean.