Overcoming Fear
- Thread starter Xue Sheng
- Start date
Empty Hands
Senior Master
I will not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer...
Fear is the mind-killer...
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Everyone has fear and I am pretty certain of that. I had a job once that required me to get into some nasty situations and I noticed that before and after I was scared but during I can never remember being scared. That does not mean I wasn’t, it just means I was too busy
And I also do not agree with the terminology used “eliminate your fear” because I do not think that is possible to eliminate fear. However I do think it is possible to look inward and discover triggers and some of those, once you understand them, can be avoided or gotten rid of, basically you can't get rid of fear, but you may be able to get rid of some of the triggers that you have that produce a fear response. Also things like a fear of being hit can also be reduced or controlled through training. Basically if you train MA and you are never really hit the first time you are you will be shocked and hesitate with you really shouldn’t.
But what I am getting from the article is not so much the elimination of fear (even though the author says that) but the understanding of fear which will generally reduce it or give you the ability to control it at certain times. Also fear, if you are talking the fight or flight response, can be a good thing, got me out of the way of an oncoming bus once.
I do not think the elimination or overt suppression of any emotion is a good thing (I tried once and I can tell you it is not healthy) but the understanding of those emotions and their triggers is, IMO, a real good thing.
Hey, this is just the opinion of an old beat up CMA guy so take it for what it is worth
And I also do not agree with the terminology used “eliminate your fear” because I do not think that is possible to eliminate fear. However I do think it is possible to look inward and discover triggers and some of those, once you understand them, can be avoided or gotten rid of, basically you can't get rid of fear, but you may be able to get rid of some of the triggers that you have that produce a fear response. Also things like a fear of being hit can also be reduced or controlled through training. Basically if you train MA and you are never really hit the first time you are you will be shocked and hesitate with you really shouldn’t.
But what I am getting from the article is not so much the elimination of fear (even though the author says that) but the understanding of fear which will generally reduce it or give you the ability to control it at certain times. Also fear, if you are talking the fight or flight response, can be a good thing, got me out of the way of an oncoming bus once.
I do not think the elimination or overt suppression of any emotion is a good thing (I tried once and I can tell you it is not healthy) but the understanding of those emotions and their triggers is, IMO, a real good thing.
Hey, this is just the opinion of an old beat up CMA guy so take it for what it is worth
decepticon
Green Belt
Do you all believe that...manufactured fear, for lack of a better term (extreme sports, tournament fighting, bungee jumping, etc.) has any value in helping someone learn how to properly experience fear and learn how to work around it?
I have noticed that as I have gotten older and hopefully wiser, I now experience a significant amount of fear when doing some activities that I used do do without pause. Things such as taking a horse over high jumps, zip lining, class 4 and 5 whitewater rafting, and oh yeah, that time I went to circus school and took the trapeze class. I took time off from these types of activities when my daughter was small, but now have returned to most of them but have been surprised to meet with fear tending toward anxiety attacks when poised at the point of no return. During the actual activity, I usually have a great time.
I wonder, would having to master these fears and force myself to continue to function adequately for the activity have any benefit that would carry over into a MA/life or death situation? At least I know from experience that fear, itself, won't kill me!
I have noticed that as I have gotten older and hopefully wiser, I now experience a significant amount of fear when doing some activities that I used do do without pause. Things such as taking a horse over high jumps, zip lining, class 4 and 5 whitewater rafting, and oh yeah, that time I went to circus school and took the trapeze class. I took time off from these types of activities when my daughter was small, but now have returned to most of them but have been surprised to meet with fear tending toward anxiety attacks when poised at the point of no return. During the actual activity, I usually have a great time.
I wonder, would having to master these fears and force myself to continue to function adequately for the activity have any benefit that would carry over into a MA/life or death situation? At least I know from experience that fear, itself, won't kill me!
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Well, I know that Bungee Jumping can screw up Your Back, and Extreme Sports are about as bad.Do you all believe that...manufactured fear, for lack of a better term (extreme sports, tournament fighting, bungee jumping, etc.) has any value in helping someone learn how to properly experience fear and learn how to work around it?
I have noticed that as I have gotten older and hopefully wiser, I now experience a significant amount of fear when doing some activities that I used do do without pause. Things such as taking a horse over high jumps, zip lining, class 4 and 5 whitewater rafting, and oh yeah, that time I went to circus school and took the trapeze class. I took time off from these types of activities when my daughter was small, but now have returned to most of them but have been surprised to meet with fear tending toward anxiety attacks when poised at the point of no return. During the actual activity, I usually have a great time.
I wonder, would having to master these fears and force myself to continue to function adequately for the activity have any benefit that would carry over into a MA/life or death situation? At least I know from experience that fear, itself, won't kill me!
Id call that the opposite of Self Defense.
As for Tournaments, if Youre afraid during Tournaments, thats subjective to You. For most its the opposite.
And if Youre going to crumple in fear at the first sign of violence, thats just as much about You, as a unique person.
Tez3 wrote;
Yet I am sure there are examples of when you and they were brave? That time you spoke to the commander about that thing/time/situation, or when teaching your kids how to drive, trying that new recipe preparing for an important meal for someone special. Just as people who falsely only see their bravery, those who only see their cowardliness are only seeing a part of their reflection. Both extremes often react with a type of bravado that covers up what they might feel is a shameful weakness that either they or their part of society might not accept. I think that people often see themselves as afraid and heros and it can all happen in a matter of seconds. The trick is in my opinion is to see yourself honestly and deal with it.
Xue Sheng wrote;
When handling explosives the first time in the military I was nervous and afraid. After expending tons of various explosives while still respecting the work I was no longer afraid. The first time I asked her to dance I was nervous and afraid, after dating a few years I was no longer afraid to ask if she wanted to dance, both the above in my mind are examples of fear eliminated. Driving a car the first time compared to driving a quick run to the corner store is still another example. First day of school/academy still another. Knowledge, action, positive experience all can combine to help eliminate the fear.
Exactly right XS. “Poznai Sebia - discover yourself” When one sees a storm cloud approaching it is always better to prepare for the storm, ignoring the cloud or attempting to wish it away are counter productive. See the approaching cloud and grab some storm gear, make sure there is plenty of fuel in the car, wood in the shed and food in the pantry then enjoy the storm if it arrives.
Decepticon wrote;
In my opinion, learning to recognize the nervous systemÂ’s responses to external and internal stimulations is an important step in learning how to control the different fears and anxieties that daily bombard us. Does a person have to experience the rush of danger to experience fear? To answer my own question, yes, but only IF the person is so desensitized that they cannot recognize fear in itÂ’s smaller everyday occurrences.
I think that certainly a person almost always benefits from learning how to function adequately under extreme circumstances. But, positive outcomes do not always lead to the proper lessons learned just as negative outcomes do not always lead to the proper lessons learned. Being corded and pushed or leaping off a bridge screaming the entire decent or worse holding the breath the entire decent then going out and celebrating the ‘victory’ over fear is celebrating a pyrrhic victory in my opinion. That said, sometimes a good scare is good for the body for the sake of a good scare. Sort of shakes up and sifts the nervous system. It is one reason that people often enjoy a horror movie or rides at an amusement park. Not as a study but because it can be lifting and charging.
One of the senior Systema instructors (thanks Konstantin) uses the analogy of an avalanche. If we can for a moment think of fear as an avalanche. If trying to stop or prevent an avalanche is it better to wait until it has traveled hundreds of yards gaining momentum and strength every foot, waiting somewhere below its flow with outstretched arms yelling stop, or might it be better to, learn to see that first grain of dust, or that first sand particle, the first rock teetering on edge ready to tip and start the falling process, and to simply steady it.
A person does not have to face life and death situations to learn about fear. Our SNS switches on all through an ordinary unremarkable day. Learning to recognize when this happens and how to then trigger the Parasympathetic response can be achieved with little steps. When that traffic light goes from green to red seemingly skipping yellow all together is a great opportunity. When the phone rings during a quite evening. When reaching for a door and it suddenly opens from the other side. Dropping that dish while doing the dishes. When asking for that first dance. Learning to deal with these little often ignored flashes of fear and tension helps us practice and learn to deal with the ‘more serious life and death’ situations that we may or may not someday face with a professional calm comportment.
Fear faced but not understood or completely cleansed from our systems causes excess tensions, these excess tensions can stack and multiply the already existing excess tensions. There are people running around, perhaps even reading this thread that are stuck in a perpetual sympathetic nervous response (A part of the nervous system that controls of what many call fight, flight or freeze response, the sympathetic nervous system or SNS) On the other hand learning to recognize the sympathetic nervous system response at that first instant when it activates, understanding what is going on and why is a very good start to understanding fear. Learning how to trigger the parasympathetic nervous system is of course a following step to help counter the SNS to help calmly function during extreme situations and circumstances. Learning how to healthily cleanse the results of a SNS response is also very necessary and beneficial. Hint, prayer and breathing can be bridges between different systems.
I somewhat disagree. I am of the opinion that many diseases and health issues are complicated if not actually brought on by the homeostatic imbalance that many people are unknowingly enduring. Whats more, fear and tension are contagious. Ever been in a situation where one person was panicked or agitated and seen how it effected others near by? People that experience fear but do not healthily cleanse the results of the experience from their own psyche's and bodies risk passing it on to their own friends and families. The benefit of learning how to deal with these tensions when they are small and easy to practice on is also very beneficial to our health, not just to prepare for the great what if that often never occurs. The fear that does not kill you today might in fact lead to your death ten years from now.
In regards to the linked article Tomas is a good guy, a skilled martial artist, great firefighter, and most important a great husband and father. He was recognized as firefighter of the year last year in East Pierce County. It was an amusing awards ceremony as they got called out on a fire in the middle of it. http://www.blscourierherald.com/news/115676414.html?period=W&mpStartDate=03-05-2011 I have been privileged to call him friend and to train with him at our club for many years now. As with most interviews the questions and answers often have to be shortened or omitted to fit the format. I can recommend without reservation training with him.
Onwards
Regards
Brian King
Yet I am sure there are examples of when you and they were brave? That time you spoke to the commander about that thing/time/situation, or when teaching your kids how to drive, trying that new recipe preparing for an important meal for someone special. Just as people who falsely only see their bravery, those who only see their cowardliness are only seeing a part of their reflection. Both extremes often react with a type of bravado that covers up what they might feel is a shameful weakness that either they or their part of society might not accept. I think that people often see themselves as afraid and heros and it can all happen in a matter of seconds. The trick is in my opinion is to see yourself honestly and deal with it.
Xue Sheng wrote;
When handling explosives the first time in the military I was nervous and afraid. After expending tons of various explosives while still respecting the work I was no longer afraid. The first time I asked her to dance I was nervous and afraid, after dating a few years I was no longer afraid to ask if she wanted to dance, both the above in my mind are examples of fear eliminated. Driving a car the first time compared to driving a quick run to the corner store is still another example. First day of school/academy still another. Knowledge, action, positive experience all can combine to help eliminate the fear.
Exactly right XS. “Poznai Sebia - discover yourself” When one sees a storm cloud approaching it is always better to prepare for the storm, ignoring the cloud or attempting to wish it away are counter productive. See the approaching cloud and grab some storm gear, make sure there is plenty of fuel in the car, wood in the shed and food in the pantry then enjoy the storm if it arrives.
Decepticon wrote;
In my opinion, learning to recognize the nervous systemÂ’s responses to external and internal stimulations is an important step in learning how to control the different fears and anxieties that daily bombard us. Does a person have to experience the rush of danger to experience fear? To answer my own question, yes, but only IF the person is so desensitized that they cannot recognize fear in itÂ’s smaller everyday occurrences.
I think that certainly a person almost always benefits from learning how to function adequately under extreme circumstances. But, positive outcomes do not always lead to the proper lessons learned just as negative outcomes do not always lead to the proper lessons learned. Being corded and pushed or leaping off a bridge screaming the entire decent or worse holding the breath the entire decent then going out and celebrating the ‘victory’ over fear is celebrating a pyrrhic victory in my opinion. That said, sometimes a good scare is good for the body for the sake of a good scare. Sort of shakes up and sifts the nervous system. It is one reason that people often enjoy a horror movie or rides at an amusement park. Not as a study but because it can be lifting and charging.
One of the senior Systema instructors (thanks Konstantin) uses the analogy of an avalanche. If we can for a moment think of fear as an avalanche. If trying to stop or prevent an avalanche is it better to wait until it has traveled hundreds of yards gaining momentum and strength every foot, waiting somewhere below its flow with outstretched arms yelling stop, or might it be better to, learn to see that first grain of dust, or that first sand particle, the first rock teetering on edge ready to tip and start the falling process, and to simply steady it.
A person does not have to face life and death situations to learn about fear. Our SNS switches on all through an ordinary unremarkable day. Learning to recognize when this happens and how to then trigger the Parasympathetic response can be achieved with little steps. When that traffic light goes from green to red seemingly skipping yellow all together is a great opportunity. When the phone rings during a quite evening. When reaching for a door and it suddenly opens from the other side. Dropping that dish while doing the dishes. When asking for that first dance. Learning to deal with these little often ignored flashes of fear and tension helps us practice and learn to deal with the ‘more serious life and death’ situations that we may or may not someday face with a professional calm comportment.
Fear faced but not understood or completely cleansed from our systems causes excess tensions, these excess tensions can stack and multiply the already existing excess tensions. There are people running around, perhaps even reading this thread that are stuck in a perpetual sympathetic nervous response (A part of the nervous system that controls of what many call fight, flight or freeze response, the sympathetic nervous system or SNS) On the other hand learning to recognize the sympathetic nervous system response at that first instant when it activates, understanding what is going on and why is a very good start to understanding fear. Learning how to trigger the parasympathetic nervous system is of course a following step to help counter the SNS to help calmly function during extreme situations and circumstances. Learning how to healthily cleanse the results of a SNS response is also very necessary and beneficial. Hint, prayer and breathing can be bridges between different systems.
I somewhat disagree. I am of the opinion that many diseases and health issues are complicated if not actually brought on by the homeostatic imbalance that many people are unknowingly enduring. Whats more, fear and tension are contagious. Ever been in a situation where one person was panicked or agitated and seen how it effected others near by? People that experience fear but do not healthily cleanse the results of the experience from their own psyche's and bodies risk passing it on to their own friends and families. The benefit of learning how to deal with these tensions when they are small and easy to practice on is also very beneficial to our health, not just to prepare for the great what if that often never occurs. The fear that does not kill you today might in fact lead to your death ten years from now.
In regards to the linked article Tomas is a good guy, a skilled martial artist, great firefighter, and most important a great husband and father. He was recognized as firefighter of the year last year in East Pierce County. It was an amusing awards ceremony as they got called out on a fire in the middle of it. http://www.blscourierherald.com/news/115676414.html?period=W&mpStartDate=03-05-2011 I have been privileged to call him friend and to train with him at our club for many years now. As with most interviews the questions and answers often have to be shortened or omitted to fit the format. I can recommend without reservation training with him.
Onwards
Regards
Brian King
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
This may be semantics so please forgive me if that is the case
But is it still possible for you to feel fear?
If so then you have not eliminated it, it is still there. In the cases you mentioned I would say you eliminated the triggers or gained a better understanding of them therefore they did not cause fear.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Since it is a natural response to potentially dangerous situations, fear is not the problem. Lack of control of fear can be a big problem.
I couldn't count the times I have experienced fear of one sort or another. Usually I have overcome it, but not always. A couple or three times, I was totally panic struck. Once I very quickly overcame fear of being the only person in authority, and proceeded to take charge of a situation. Only to find myself staring down the barrel of a rifle set on automatic. You know, there's a whole new world down inside an M-16 rifle's small barrel. Yet, I was most fearful of the effects my potential actions might have on others around me. Hard to believe thinking back on it.
Fear has its place in our survival, as does overcoming it.
I couldn't count the times I have experienced fear of one sort or another. Usually I have overcome it, but not always. A couple or three times, I was totally panic struck. Once I very quickly overcame fear of being the only person in authority, and proceeded to take charge of a situation. Only to find myself staring down the barrel of a rifle set on automatic. You know, there's a whole new world down inside an M-16 rifle's small barrel. Yet, I was most fearful of the effects my potential actions might have on others around me. Hard to believe thinking back on it.
Fear has its place in our survival, as does overcoming it.
Fear is something that everyone has. Spiders, heights, elevators, the dark, dogs, loud noises, whatever! Everyone has a fear or two.
It's been long advised to face the fear(s) and overcome them. It's the one of the first steps in maturity, spiritual growth, understanding and inner peace. Lots of different ways to face/overcome our fears. Many realize how petty many of those fears are once they have done so.
Thoughout my life I've faced many dangers; human, animal, nature to name a few. Right now I can honestly say that I fear very little. It only blossoms when I allow my "magical magnifying mind" to blow it (whatever it may be) out of proportion.
Two favorite quotes (related to fear) from the blind monk in the TV show Kung Fu.
A couple of times I've started a thread where we could openly discuss our fears (past and present) and reveal how we overcame them. Gotten no takers. Seems that it's a topic too many hold close to the vest and are unwilling to discuss. My experience and belief has shown me that by discussing our fears we open the door and it diminishes the weight of it off our shoulders.
It's been long advised to face the fear(s) and overcome them. It's the one of the first steps in maturity, spiritual growth, understanding and inner peace. Lots of different ways to face/overcome our fears. Many realize how petty many of those fears are once they have done so.
Thoughout my life I've faced many dangers; human, animal, nature to name a few. Right now I can honestly say that I fear very little. It only blossoms when I allow my "magical magnifying mind" to blow it (whatever it may be) out of proportion.
Two favorite quotes (related to fear) from the blind monk in the TV show Kung Fu.
A couple of times I've started a thread where we could openly discuss our fears (past and present) and reveal how we overcame them. Gotten no takers. Seems that it's a topic too many hold close to the vest and are unwilling to discuss. My experience and belief has shown me that by discussing our fears we open the door and it diminishes the weight of it off our shoulders.
Em MacIntosh
3rd Black Belt
I'm paranoid. Some would even say I'm paranoid enough. I have no confidence in my abilities, I have muscle memory and ferocity. I don't fight fear but it gives me two choices, catatonia or agression. Calling it "fight or flight" doesn't adequately describe the pressure of the adrenaline dump. My knees get shaky and I can't think in the conventional sense. I "burst" with tooth and nail in an attempt to break away and run like hell. My biggest fear is to be "held-up" (jumped, jacked, mugged etc.) while I'm with someone, like my girlfriend. That terrifies me.
Regards
Brian King
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I shall watch that again....and probably again.......thank you for posting
I have a somewhat strange responce to the fight or flight responce. My emotions completely shut down, I become very calm, and my brain seams to process data more effeciently. On the down side, I have no jump reflex, and must move out of danger intentionally. Just last week a guy, I think, fell asleep at the wheel and his truck veered off the road and I saw it comming. I did nothing until the last second and calmly stepped out of the way. I remember thinking, "Oh, he's comming at me. I think he must be asleep. Still comming." Then I stepped and a second later the truck swirved sharply. Guess he woke up. Another time, I remember walking down the railroad tracks in Sweden. It was after dark and I heard a noise off to the side. I look over and there is a baby moose (or swedish equivilent) maybe 6 feet away. And I thought, "I should keep moving don't want mama seeing me this close to baby." When I turned back to keep moving. I was nose to nose with mama. I could feel her hot, moist, breath on my face. And I knew without a doubt that I was going to die. I stood there calmly waiting to die, and eventually she walked away. There is an old saying, "one can only fear that which they do not understand." That quote was what I thought of when I read the above article.
Ironbear24
Senior Master
The only place that fear can exist is in our thoughts of the future. It is a product of our imagination, causing us to fear things that do not at present and may not ever exist. That is near insanity Kitai. Do not misunderstand me, danger is very real, but fear is a choice.
From the film after earth.
From the film after earth.
Similar threads
- muayThaiPerson
- General Martial Arts Talk
