Origins of the Mook Jong

[phfman]

I hope this does not sound like a dumb question, but did the use of the Mook Jong originate with Yip Man or was this already a style specific training tool. I have heard of other traditional styles using a wooden dummy type training device but heard there are differences in design. Thanks for any input.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Great question!! As with the origins of wing chun, there is still a lot of debate. Many chunners claim that the dummy was derived as part of the Shaolin arts to begin with. Whilst many claim that the dummy was formed later so that chunners could practice the art on their own in secret

I don’t think the dummy would have been developed as late as Yip Man, but Im sure the wise internet warlords on here will be able to clarify…

I know that Bruce Lee had a student who was good at building things and helped him develop machines and tools to help him train

 

[geezer]

Great question!! As with the origins of wing chun, there is still a lot of debate. Many chunners claim that the dummy was derived as part of the Shaolin arts to begin with....

Well I have no claim to any factual knowledge beyond what is generally known and accepted--namely that wooden dummies of various configurations have been used in traditional Chinese martial arts for at least a couple of centuries and probably much longer. Heck so did the Romans, for that matter (ever see the original movei Sparticus?) When did the dummy that is unique to Wing chun evolve? Based on it's use among divergent groups on the mainland, I would guess that it dates to no later than the time of Leung Jan of Fatshan in the mid 1800s. The earlier dummies are said to have been "dead" dummies, with a trunk that was an unmoving post set solidly into the ground. Grandmanster Yip Man's dummy in Hong Kong was said to have been made by copying a "Weng Chun" dummy borrowed from a friend. Some say that Grandmaster Yip's Hong Kong dummy, fashioned to fit in his apartment kitchen, was the first "live dummy" mounted on a frame with springy slats that allowed the trunk to flex and rebound. Hopefully some of you may have more info on this. I find it an interesting topic.

 

[yak sao]

from everything I 've read, the MYJ dates back to old mainland China.
Yip man is only one "clan" of Wing Chun. there are many others not directly related to him, and from what I can tell they all use the dummy.

Side note....I used to teach out of a Hung Gar school a couple of nights a week back several years ago, and they used a dummy in their training also as part of their traditional cirriculum. Hung Gar traces its history back to the Shaolin Temple so it adds some credence to the Shaolin /wing chun connection. I have also seen Choy Lee Fut dummies, thogh they are configured differntly

 

[chisauking]

The mook jong has been in existance a lot longer than the wing chun system.

I'm not sure when the wing chun jong was first used, but it's a known fact that it was grandmaster Yip man who first introduced the 'modern' method of hanging the jong on the wooden slates against the walls.

Most people credit Koo Sang for designing this method with Yip sifu, but this isn't true. It was someone else (I can't remember the name of hand), who made the first jong and hanging slates for Yip sifu, but after that, he refused to make any more, claiming that people learning to fight was 'bad'. This story was relayed to me by sifu Yip ching, so if there's any errors in my details, it's possibly down to my own memory.

 

[phfman]

Thanks to everyone for their valuable input.

 

[Vajramusti]

Many Chinese MA styles specially the southern ones had their their own jongs-wing chun, choy li fut, and po fa lien included. But the dummies are usually style specific for training the favored actions of each style.In the red boat era some boats had practice dummies with different shapes.The jongs have evolved. Once there were dummies for pole work and bat jam do work.
In Ip Man's early Fatshan days the jong was buried in the ground.Then the adaptaion to the hanging dummy took place in Ip Man's Hong Kong days.
There is some dispute as to who made Ip man's first dummy.Koo Sang did make one for Ip man.. and Koo Sang made the best dummies until he died.
Koo Sang also made good butterfly knives.
Making a good dummy is not easy and is fairly labor intensive. The angles of the arms, the leveling of the arms, space between the arms, the vertical and horizontal alignment of the arms, the substance of the body- good hardwood is best- are all elements of a good dummy.Teak is hard to find these days- so other hardwoods have been introduced.The wood needs to be properly dried or they will crack over time.Occasional oiling helps preserve the dummy.

 

[geezer]

it's a known fact that it was grandmaster Yip man who first introduced the 'modern' method of hanging the jong on the wooden slates against the walls...

Most people credit Koo Sang for designing this method with Yip sifu, but this isn't true. It was someone else (I can't remember the name of hand), who made the first jong and hanging slates for Yip sifu, but after that, he refused to make any more, claiming that people learning to fight was 'bad'...

Who can say if this story is factual or just a good tale. But if true, then the unknown, pacifistic craftsman who devised hanging the dummy on slats wasn't a Kung-fu man. Rather, he was just a carpenter who had to figure out a way to support the dummy in a small apartment without damaging the walls, probably thinking of the slats as a way to distribute the pressure and act as shock absorbers. Only after it was set up for use would the elastic, "rebound effect" have been experienced. That's usually the way that new things are developed... a chance occurrance observed by a keen mind (in this case Great Grandmaster Yip) and then developed to utilise its full potential. Thanks for the input CSK!

 

[KamonGuy2]

Just to also put in here - the movie Kick *** features the baddie training on a wooden dummy! I wonder if he was inspired by Wing chun Downey Jr on the set of Sherlock Holmes....

 

[yak sao]

I've seen "weng chun" people training long poles on a pole dummy.
Anyone seen Bart Jam Do dummy training?

 

[chisauking]

Geezer:

To elaborate a little, the carpenter that made the first jong for Yip Man under his brief, had suffered a misfortunate after making the jong, hence his reason for saying it was a bad thing, because he thought he was being punished for his part.

Whether the story is true or not, personally I'm sure pleased with this type of setup. I really like the 'feedback' this way of hanging the jong provides, and in a very short space of time, my own 'short-bridge' power has increased through the proper practice of this form.

 

[chisauking]

I've seen "weng chun" people training long poles on a pole dummy.
Anyone seen Bart Jam Do dummy training?

So, we can chop up our beautiful jong? LOL

Personally, I see very little point in training your kwan on the jong. The target is too big, and to poke your jong with a good pole would result in the following...

1) The damage of your pole
2) The damage of your jong
3) The damage of both your jong & pole

 

[yak sao]

The pole dummy training I had seen uses a specific dummy designed for the poles...my question is not to make kindling out of the MYJ, rather, has anyone seen a specific dummy for BJD training,

 

[geezer]

The pole dummy training I had seen uses a specific dummy designed for the poles...my question is not to make kindling out of the MYJ, rather, has anyone seen a specific dummy for BJD training,

No, you start with a thick, heavy tree trunk, then go at it with a blur of Bart Cham Dao technique (cue sound of chainsaw), after a few moments pause and, if your technique is any good, you should have a finished Mook Yang Jong!