On the management of risk in a society...

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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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Conventions? For amendments? Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_to_propose_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution

For example, we amended to have Prohibition, and then to repeal it, without any convention; we altered the election of the VP without one.

How does a peice of paper that most citizens never agreed to follow dare to constrain what another person can do with their bodies? Where does that power come from? Seems to me that if we look at it objectively, all we are left with is one group of people telling another what they can and cannot do. where does this power come from? What makes one group of people deserving of this power over another group of people?
 

Drasken

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“No one is taking away all the guns. But now I get it. Now I see what is happening. So this is what it is, their paranoid fear of a possible dystopic future prevents us from addressing our actual dystopic present. We can’t even begin to address 30,000 gun deaths that are actually in reality happening in this country every year because a few of us must remain vigilant against the rise of imaginary Hitler.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/...s-rant-guns-needed-to-fight-imaginary-hitler/

No, I don't think you're getting what I'm trying to get through to you. I was illustrating what the 2nd Amendment was meant for. And no it's not an imagined threat I am talking about. It is a very remote possibility. But it was one of the reasons the founding fathers wrote this for.

My point is that the laws proposed do nothing to deal with our current problem and set up other real issues without helping to correct the problems in our present society. There is real concern here.
 

ballen0351

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“No one is taking away all the guns. But now I get it. Now I see what is happening. So this is what it is, their paranoid fear of a possible dystopic future prevents us from addressing our actual dystopic present. We can’t even begin to address 30,000 gun deaths that are actually in reality happening in this country every year because a few of us must remain vigilant against the rise of imaginary Hitler.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/...s-rant-guns-needed-to-fight-imaginary-hitler/

But they are taking guns away. Over 100 different guns will be banned here tomorrow. That's the point. Then to ad to it morons that know nothing about guns are making the list so an AR15 is banned but an AR10 isn't. A 30 rnd mag is banned but 3 ten rnd mags no problem. The laws make zero sense. They have no rhyme or reason. A mini 14 OK a mini 14 with bayonet lug banned. You say we don't want to prevent crime I put my life on the line every day to prevent crime. I want actual laws that will work not this crap they are passing and presenting now. Grab a few greaving moms throw them on TV to get your way. Its all BS and you know it.
 

ballen0351

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How does a peice of paper that most citizens never agreed to follow dare to constrain what another person can do with their bodies? Where does that power come from? Seems to me that if we look at it objectively, all we are left with is one group of people telling another what they can and cannot do. where does this power come from? What makes one group of people deserving of this power over another group of people?
You do agree to follow it. By staying in society you agree to follow society's rules. I'm not sure how it can be any more clear.
 

arnisador

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You say we don't want to prevent crime

No, I'm sure you do--you're just unwilling to bend to do so.

I want actual laws that will work not this crap they are passing and presenting now.

But you've repeatedly stated your belief that laws don't work--that murders are committed even though murder is illegal, so why bother?

Its all BS and you know it.

If I know that, why am I bothering? This position is juvenile.
 

Big Don

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The topic was actually medical care for people who engage in behaviors with known risks.

Well, AIDS, outside of male homosexuality is pretty hard to catch. Is that a behavior with a known risk to you? Name a STD one can contract without choice or crime?
 
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ballen0351

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No, I'm sure you do--you're just unwilling to bend to do so.
Well I could get even more illegal guns if we could bend the 4th amendment too. Its for the kids after all. In fact almost all of our homicides happen at night and on the streets or outside so how about mandatory curfews for all citizens if were really trying to save people.
But you've repeatedly stated your belief that laws don't work--that murders are committed even though murder is illegal, so why bother?
Laws don't work if they did we wouldn't need law enforcement the law would be enough. SO give me laws that will work. After my newest purchase I will own 7 semi automatic rifles ARs AKs SKS ext. When the ban gets signed here tomorrow I'll still own that many. If next month I snap the gun ban can't stop me I'm already armed. In July when I take my kids to Disney someone steals my gun safe and gets it open and shoots up a school the gun ban did nothing. The guns are already here. I have a buddy that works for a local gun maker they make AR platform weapons they have a 7 month back order for AR15s this is a small company they can make and put together about 200 AR15s a day. He says he's getting over 100 calls for new orders a day. The guns are already here banning them now won't help anyone.

If I know that, why am I bothering? This position is juvenile.

I have no idea your smart enough to know better but it feels good to do something to try it out for the good of the kids
 
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Makalakumu

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You do agree to follow it. By staying in society you agree to follow society's rules. I'm not sure how it can be any more clear.

If someone gives you two choices and forces you to pick one, that's not an agreement.
 

Big Don

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But the next person won't be able to buy them. We have to start somewhere, sometime. Anyway, banning specific weapons isn't a key part of what I'd like to see.

Yet, you've argued that no one needs an "assault rifle" etc...
 

ballen0351

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But the next person won't be able to buy them. We have to start somewhere, sometime. Anyway, banning specific weapons isn't a key part of what I'd like to see.

in your opinion why start with rifles. If a majority of gun deaths murder and suicides a rifle is not used why start there?
 

arnisador

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in your opinion why start with rifles. If a majority of gun deaths murder and suicides a rifle is not used why start there?

I don't know. You and your neighbors elected those folks in MD--you tell me what their reasoning is. I want to start with better background checks, mandatory education for licensing, and improved safe storage laws/unsafe storage penalties. But the answer to your previous post is still that the fact that things are bad now and will remain so for the foreseeable future doesn't mean we shouldn't make any changes--it means that the sooner we make them, the sooner we might see an effect. A 10-year AWB isn't esp. effective as guns have a better than 10 year useful lifespan. After 30 years they'd be rarer--lost, damaged, poorly maintained, confiscated, etc. Prohibition of alcohol didn't eliminate it until what people had in stock was drunk up. Stuff was imported or made here illegally, but it sure made it harder for the average person.

Printable guns could change all this eventually, of course. It's a brave new world out there.
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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There is always more then 2 choices. Choice #3 move to a different society.

Nope. This isn't an agreement. It's a false choice. There are only two choices that might not get you thrown in the slammer or worse, leave or follow the rules (and sometimes, leaving a society is breaking the rules, especially if you try to take your property with you). Choice 3 would be to break the rules in some way, but that's where one group of people claims to have the right to force you to follow the rules. This is the basis of the Rule of Law isn't it? Or perhaps we could call it the Law of Rulers.

There isn't anything objective about the one group of people we call Rulers in a society and the Rules. Our Founding Fathers actually noted this and tried to deal with the concept when they created the government. It's the whole "All Men Are Created Equal" bit, but then they went on and started created exceptions to this when they created the rest of the government.

The problem is that the whole edifice is based off of nothing but belief. We can look at each other across the table at each other and objectively there is no reason why one of us should rule over the other, but if one of us is wearing the right clothing and official jewelry, we might now have the power to force you to do what we want. This is a problem because it means that our whole basis of organizing society is built on an irrational principle. It's the same irrational principle that all religions and gods are based off of. They simply do not exist in any objective sense. If everyone stopped believing tomorrow, the religion disappears, the people in costumes wearing fancy jewelry become just that.

It's ironic that belief in government is false in exactly the same way religions are false, because so many atheists are strong supporters of government power. They literally have transferred their belief from one religion to another and don't realize it. Or course for others, the people who believe in gods, the belief in government makes perfect sense as well. Irrationality welcomes itself.

That said, I guess if I have to answer my own questions in this thread, I'd have to say that there is no rational basis for one group of people to dictate/prohibit what is risky and what is not for another. We can pretend to use reason and facts to back up our argument for or against risk, but as soon as an appeal to law is made, it doesn't matter any more. One group is claiming that they have the right to initiate force against everyone different in order to make them do what they want.

Objectively, the only way to have a real discussion is to take force out of the equation. At the very best, you can attempt to craft an argument that uses reason and evidence to back up your point about what is risky and some people might agree. Some others might not...and that is their right as sovereign equal humans. They can form a community and you can form a community and the world is still big enough to house us all.

And, no, this is not what we have now. Our world is a geography of invisible lines where one group of people claims the Rule of Law over everyone within a geographic area. However, the Law of Rulers is false. People are equal and free and society won't make any sense until humanity can truly express this.
 

ballen0351

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there is not now has never been and can never be a "free" society. the very nature of a society means there are rules that must be followed. Even cavemen had rules you gotta pee go outside of the cave. Even animals learn not to go to the bathroom in their dens. There will always be people in all societies that will prey on others and that means we will need rules in place to deal with these people. You cant have the perfect society without perfect humans and there are none of them on earth right now
 

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