On-line MA lessons

Kacey

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There was a (now locked) thread on on-line lessons for MA, which generated some interesting comments... but they got lost in the shuffle, so I'd like to restart the conversation on a general level.

Do you think that MA lessons can be taught in an on-line format as the primary form of instruction?

How about as a review lesson?

What about archives of previously taught lessons?

Is there any use to on-line MA lessons that you see?

Here's my take on the concept:

Some college classes are being taught in an online format.... but not many - and physical education is not among the common choices. There are many things I would not be willing to learn on an electronic media, and martials is among those things. Like mathematics, science lab, or counseling, to give a few examples, some things need to be demonstrated in person, and immediate feedback provided, for the person to truly learn. I would include any physical skill, especially those in which improper performance could lead to injury, among those topics. A coworker of mine took an on-line class as part of her associate's degree, and disliked it intensely; she found the recorded lectures difficult to follow, and particularly disliked not being able to interact with the professor directly, as the time necessary to ask questions via email and receive responses was frustrating, and often produced responses that, while informative, did not really answer the question asked. If that was her experience with a basic English class, I cannot imagine how much worse it would be in a class requiring precise physical movements, which are often hard to ask questions about in writing, rather than through demonstration.

I have been in TKD for 19 years, and I have learned a great deal from reference materials - both text and video - but every time I work out with my instructor, he provides feedback on my technique that I cannot get from individual, media-based materials. Nor could I learn from the moral components that I have gained from his instruction, and that of other seniors it has been my privilege to be instructed by, from text or electronic media. I have gained a great deal of supplementary information from media sources, but they cannot, in my opinion, replace the personal attention of a qualified instructor. For myself, I learned considerably more about "conceptual ideas and principles" from my instructor and other seniors than I have learned from supplemental materials, no matter the quality of those materials, because the discussions that occur in person are of much more use to me... and even the information I garner from media supplements spark questions that the supplements cannot answer, and which I take back to my instructor. That's what works for me. If your system works for others, then, kudos... but for me, I would find it to be ineffective.

Certainly, I have used media supplementals (videos) to review material and check if I am performing the correct techniques to the correct directions, especially with patterns; however, without the feedback provided by another person who has knowledge of the art and the techniques being practiced, I find it very difficult to determine if I am truly understanding the technique being demonstrated, and even more, truly knowing if I am performing it properly. This has nothing to do with the quality of the person on the video, in my opinion; for myself, simply because I can see something over and over, at varying speeds, does not mean that I can, necessarily, tell if I am performing it properly.

For myself, I could see online videos and other information as a useful supplement, but not as a primary form of instruction.

Comments? Ideas? Opinions?
 

SFC JeffJ

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I agree with you 100%. They could be a useful supplement, but that is all.

Jeff
 

tradrockrat

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Taught online? Never.

But they could be used as a powerful supplement to the learning process. Think interactive note taking and review for example.
 

Swordlady

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Online MA lessons as a primary teaching tool? Absolutely not. As Kacey just stated, martial arts requires precise movements - and immediate feedback from a *live* instructor, who could let you know if you're doing the technique correctly.

I do agree that lessons in video format could be a useful supplemental tool. That is actually what I do for my YSKR class. I videotape my sensei during the times he teaches us, and use it as a reference when I practice on my own. If I have any questions, I could always ask my sensei or one of the yudansha. With that said, I think that video lessons are most useful, when you are currently training with the instructor who is featured in the video. Although...videos from different instructors doing the *same* MA style could also be effective - just as long as you are already training with an actual instructor.

I also think of video instruction like this: All pro athletes have coaches. Many of these coaches also use videos to supplement the training for their athletes (e.g., to illustrate strategies in motion). But those videos are NOT meant to substitute live coaching.
 

Ceicei

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Swordlady said:
I also think of video instruction like this: All pro athletes have coaches. Many of these coaches also use videos to supplement the training for their athletes (e.g., to illustrate strategies in motion). But those videos are NOT meant to substitute live coaching.

This reminded me of my competitive teams. I used to belong to a track team, a basketball team, and a volleyball team. Our coaches with all of them would use the videos to illustrate some points or to emphasize some concepts, but the tapes were in no way the main instructional tools. Without the coaches there, we wouldn't be able to learn the finer points of basketball, track or volleyball. There is a lot within these sports than what appears to the casual eye.

- Ceicei
 

matt.m

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My school has the links to brown university so we can view the taeguek forms online and print out the itf forms. Just as study materials though for refreshing or double checking. Nothing more, to try and do otherwise is lunacy.
 

MJS

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Kacey said:
There was a (now locked) thread on on-line lessons for MA, which generated some interesting comments... but they got lost in the shuffle, so I'd like to restart the conversation on a general level.

Do you think that MA lessons can be taught in an on-line format as the primary form of instruction?

No. People can attempt to do this, but IMO, if they're totally unfamiliar with the art, they may be able to pick something up, but the quality would be poor. As I've said before, a dvd, tape, online lesson, etc., will not show the fine points, will not allow you to ask questions, etc.

How about as a review lesson?

I'm assuming you're talking about using them as a reference? If thats the case, yes, it would be a good ref. tool.

What about archives of previously taught lessons?

Again, as a ref. point only.

Is there any use to on-line MA lessons that you see?

Again, some people may be able to learn with this method, but they'd be fooling themselves if they think they're getting the complete package.

Here's my take on the concept:



Some college classes are being taught in an online format.... but not many - and physical education is not among the common choices. There are many things I would not be willing to learn on an electronic media, and martials is among those things. Like mathematics, science lab, or counseling, to give a few examples, some things need to be demonstrated in person, and immediate feedback provided, for the person to truly learn. I would include any physical skill, especially those in which improper performance could lead to injury, among those topics. A coworker of mine took an on-line class as part of her associate's degree, and disliked it intensely; she found the recorded lectures difficult to follow, and particularly disliked not being able to interact with the professor directly, as the time necessary to ask questions via email and receive responses was frustrating, and often produced responses that, while informative, did not really answer the question asked. If that was her experience with a basic English class, I cannot imagine how much worse it would be in a class requiring precise physical movements, which are often hard to ask questions about in writing, rather than through demonstration.

I have been in TKD for 19 years, and I have learned a great deal from reference materials - both text and video - but every time I work out with my instructor, he provides feedback on my technique that I cannot get from individual, media-based materials. Nor could I learn from the moral components that I have gained from his instruction, and that of other seniors it has been my privilege to be instructed by, from text or electronic media. I have gained a great deal of supplementary information from media sources, but they cannot, in my opinion, replace the personal attention of a qualified instructor. For myself, I learned considerably more about "conceptual ideas and principles" from my instructor and other seniors than I have learned from supplemental materials, no matter the quality of those materials, because the discussions that occur in person are of much more use to me... and even the information I garner from media supplements spark questions that the supplements cannot answer, and which I take back to my instructor. That's what works for me. If your system works for others, then, kudos... but for me, I would find it to be ineffective.

Certainly, I have used media supplementals (videos) to review material and check if I am performing the correct techniques to the correct directions, especially with patterns; however, without the feedback provided by another person who has knowledge of the art and the techniques being practiced, I find it very difficult to determine if I am truly understanding the technique being demonstrated, and even more, truly knowing if I am performing it properly. This has nothing to do with the quality of the person on the video, in my opinion; for myself, simply because I can see something over and over, at varying speeds, does not mean that I can, necessarily, tell if I am performing it properly.

For myself, I could see online videos and other information as a useful supplement, but not as a primary form of instruction.

Comments? Ideas? Opinions?

I can't comment fully on college classes, because I've never done something like that, but for the reasons you've listed, I would imagine its not the easiest route to take. Its hard enough at times, on this forum, to get the point someone is trying to make, so I can just imagine how frustrating it must be to communicate with a prof. who is dealing with a number of questions, as well as other work he/she needs to do.

Mike
 

Brandon Fisher

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No I don't think it can be a primary source of instruction. My old instructor wanted to do that only do live feeds and thats crazy. People can't throughly learn that way in my opinion.
 

tradrockrat

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MJS said:
I can't comment fully on college classes, because I've never done something like that, but for the reasons you've listed, I would imagine its not the easiest route to take. Its hard enough at times, on this forum, to get the point someone is trying to make, so I can just imagine how frustrating it must be to communicate with a prof. who is dealing with a number of questions, as well as other work he/she needs to do.

Mike

On line college courses are extremely tough. I am most of the way through my masters degree online and let me tell you - you have to already know a lot, and do twice as much reading as a classroom class. Basically, all teaching is through lecture notes - the teacher posts the lectures in written format - and student reading. You know how in college the teacher would give specific chapters and skip others? Online you just read the whole book. Assignments are due on specific dates submitted by e-mail. Occasionally, there are online chats or forum style discussions led by the teacher.

To apply this concept to a physical activity simply wouldn't work as a primary source of learning. however, just like here it could be a great source of information or a great way to organize your notes and visual records for continued study.
 

w.kaer

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The only thing we've used video for is background or historical lessons. I cannot imagine effectively learning an MA through an on-line resource structured like a college class.
 

MJS

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tradrockrat said:
On line college courses are extremely tough. I am most of the way through my masters degree online and let me tell you - you have to already know a lot, and do twice as much reading as a classroom class. Basically, all teaching is through lecture notes - the teacher posts the lectures in written format - and student reading. You know how in college the teacher would give specific chapters and skip others? Online you just read the whole book. Assignments are due on specific dates submitted by e-mail. Occasionally, there are online chats or forum style discussions led by the teacher.

To apply this concept to a physical activity simply wouldn't work as a primary source of learning. however, just like here it could be a great source of information or a great way to organize your notes and visual records for continued study.

Thanks for providing more feedback from the college aspect. And I have to say, great job with taking on the task of a Masters online!! It certainly sounds like its not a walk in the park.

Mike
 

Drac

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JeffJ said:
I agree with you 100%. They could be a useful supplement, but that is all.

Jeff

I'm with Jeff on this one..A supplement at best...
 

Haze

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Supplement fine, to check form/kata fine. I use a set of DVD's from the Jundokan in Okinawa to make sure I am doing kata as taught by them. This works for me but I spent 15 years training in the art with an instructor.

I can see using video to learn new form/kata or techniques of a particular art if.... you have already had some signifigant personal training in that art or an art that was similar.
 

Drac

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Haze said:
Supplement fine, to check form/kata fine. I use a set of DVD's from the Jundokan in Okinawa to make sure I am doing kata as taught by them. This works for me but I spent 15 years training in the art with an instructor.

I can see using video to learn new form/kata or techniques of a particular art if.... you have already had some signifigant personal training in that art or an art that was similar.

That's a major difference..You have previous experience..A novice needs the the watchful eye of an instrutor...
 

Xue Sheng

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Kacey said:
Do you think that MA lessons can be taught in an on-line format as the primary form of instruction?

No

Kacey said:
How about as a review lesson?

No

Kacey said:
What about archives of previously taught lessons?

Yes

Kacey said:
Is there any use to on-line MA lessons that you see?

Yes, see previous yes
 

Grenadier

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My opinion:

The martial arts has a very important physical part to it. The techniques that are used are often times precise movements, and that a certain level of conditioning is required. This is something that really requires direct supervision by an instructor, since you do need that experience to know whether your techniques are mechanically sound and correct.

I could take one of the smartest people in the world, and have that person try to learn from a book or videos, but in the end, without building up sense memories, physical conditioning, etc., under direct supervision, even the genius isn't going to be able to get all of the core fundamentals in proper order.

As the others have stated, videos / books / etc., can certainly be great tools to help you sharpen up something where you already have a decent foundation, or to give the experienced person a good way to compare / contrast things, but never as the main way of learning.
 

King

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I'm definitely with the majority here. Supplementary or for entertainment value at best. I'd be very wary of a school claiming to teach MA through the web. I see it in the same light as somebody claiming learning MA through movies and video games. I still see people doing "shou ryu ken" in real life...
 

mjd

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OK when is the person who is buying the on line MA training going to speak up, I know your out there,

I want to here someone say something that will make me understand how this on line MA training make any since.

This is how allot of people can claim black belts is several arts, on line certificates.

I think it can only be used for historical purposes or information resource.
 

Drac

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mjd said:
OK when is the person who is buying the on line MA training going to speak up, I know your out there,

I'm with you mjd..I've seen God knows how many systems that offer a black belt certificate as soon as you order..Some claim video testing or web cam testing is available


mjd said:
I think it can only be used for historical puposes

or hysterical purposes...
 

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