Old School Taekwondo Being Practically All Kicks

[Steve]

I’m unclear how that relates to my post.

I was agreeing with you and then building on your point.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Agreed. But if the goal is to be a better fighter, for any context, the answer isn’t less application. It’s more (and more diverse) application.

I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times. - Bruce Lee

 

[Steve]

I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times. - Bruce Lee

Sort of. I wouldn’t hire the carpenter has practiced swinging a hammer 10,000 times. I’d buy the chair from the carpenter who has built 10,000 chairs.

Besides, isnt Bruce Lee just an actor??

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sort of. I wouldn’t hire the carpenter has practiced swinging a hammer 10,000 times. I’d buy the chair from the carpenter who has built 10,000 chairs.

Besides, isnt Bruce Lee just an actor??

not the same.... to be the same.... would you rather buy a specific type of chair from a guy that built 10,000 of those specific chairs...or that type of chair from a guy that built 10,000 different chairs

 

[Hot Lunch]

Sort of. I wouldn’t hire the carpenter has practiced swinging a hammer 10,000 times. I’d buy the chair from the carpenter who has built 10,000 chairs.

Besides, isnt Bruce Lee just an actor??

I fear not the man who has shagged one woman 10,000 times being around my wife, but I fear the man who has shagged 10,000 women once being around her.

 

[Steve]

not the same.... to be the same.... would you rather buy a specific type of chair from a guy that built 10,000 of those specific chairs...or that type of chair from a guy that built 10,000 different chairs

I don’t know how far we want to chase down this metaphor. An experienced woodworker who’s never made a chair will make a better chair than an inexperienced woodworker who has practiced all the discrete elements of woodworking but never held a piece of wood.

A kick in isolation is like a golf swing in isolation, or swinging a hammer in isolation. I’m not at all worried about the guy who’s practiced a single kick 10,000 times. I think that sounds good on paper, and I appreciate the tacit message, but it’s just bad advice. In my opinion.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don’t know how far we want to chase down this metaphor. An experienced woodworker who’s never made a chair will make a better chair than an inexperienced woodworker who has practiced all the discrete elements of woodworking but never held a piece of wood.

A kick in isolation is like a golf swing in isolation, or swinging a hammer in isolation. I’m not at all worried about the guy who’s practiced a single kick 10,000 times. I think that sounds good on paper, and I appreciate the tacit message, but it’s just bad advice. In my opinion.

I don't want to chase it at all, I was just correcting you usage of it to make it match what was said... more like comparing oranges to oranges than yours which compared apples to oranges.....

 

[JowGaWolf]

not the same.... to be the same.... would you rather buy a specific type of chair from a guy that built 10,000 of those specific chairs...or that type of chair from a guy that built 10,000 different chairs

He switched it up on you. Key word is ONCE. Doing something only once is not enough to build skills. Besides no martial artist does anything once.

 

[Steve]

I don't want to chase it at all, I was just correcting you usage of it to make it match what was said... more like comparing oranges to oranges than yours which compared apples to oranges.....

It made the point I was trying to make, which is that practicing a single kick 10,000 times is really pretty meaningless in isolation, without application of some kind. I can practice swinging a hammer 10,000 times, but unless there is a nail involved, I haven’t learned much at all.

You are correcting me, but seem not to understand the point.

And also, it’s just a little funny that you’re quoting Bruce Lee. don’t you think? I mean, when it’s convenient around here, folks love to point out he’s just an actor, and not a fighter at all.

But you know, it’s not worth arguing about. You made your point and I’ve made mine. We don’t have to agree. It’s all good.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It made the point I was trying to make, which is that practicing a single kick 10,000 times is really pretty meaningless in isolation, without application of some kind. I can practice swinging a hammer 10,000 times, but unless there is a nail involved, I haven’t learned much at all.

You are correcting me, but seem not to understand the point.

And also, it’s just a little funny that you’re quoting Bruce Lee. don’t you think? I mean, when it’s convenient around here, folks love to point out he’s just an actor, and not a fighter at all.

But you know, it’s not worth arguing about. You made your point and I’ve made mine. We don’t have to agree. It’s all good.

understood your point and your intent.... and you understood mine... but feel free to continue.... I'm done and shall waste no more time on this

 

[Gerry Seymour]

not the same.... to be the same.... would you rather buy a specific type of chair from a guy that built 10,000 of those specific chairs...or that type of chair from a guy that built 10,000 different chairs

Mostly, neither. A carpenter who has built dozens of different things will have a better understanding of wood and joinery. One of your hypothetical carpenters will not have had a chance to build on his experience with any one type of chair, while the other won’t have any other experience to use to improve that one chair.

 

[Xue Sheng]

 

[Tez3]

There are some arts that are, or at least at one time were, almost completely kicking arts. The French art of Savate for instance when it was first developed was almost entirely a kicking art. Savate today I know has lots of hand strikes but originally it did not as striking with a closed hand was illegal in France at one time.


Yes I know in some tournament rules you're allowed to kick to the head but punching to the face is not allowed. You even get more points if you kick to the head as opposed to kicking to the body but no hand strikes can be done to the head.

And there is no history of savate that I can find that agrees with you. Closed fists weren't illegal but could be seen as a lethal weapon in a criminal prosecution. Savate was primarily a street fighting 'style' that transferred nicely to fighting on ships, it originated in Northern France but caught on in Marseille where fighting on board was a bit of a pastime. The word 'savate' means old shoe/slipper, the hard wooden clogs worn in France at the time made kicks very effective. They used open handed strikes which as karateka know can be very effective too.

 

[Tez3]

Well France is the birthplace of Savate and apparently punching was banned in France at one time.

NO. IT WASN'T.

 

[Tez3]

I first remember reading about it in a magazine article about Savate but if you want a more current source as you pointe out there's Wkipedia.

As it states in Wikipedia: "It is conjectured that this kicking style was developed in this way to allow the fighter to use a hand to hold onto something for balance on a rocking ship's deck, and that the kicks and slaps were used on land to avoid the legal penalties for using a closed fist, which was considered a deadly weapon under the law."

Savate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You see you've just contradicted the story about fists being illegal.

 

[Steve]

regarding savate, I took some time to read “A history of savate, chausson, and ‘French Boxing’ (1828-1978): A short story for a long past” by Jean-Francois Loudcher.

TL;DR: savate appears to be uniquely French, and a form of sport all the way back to its origins. Punching and kicking were both part of it, as was standing grappling (eg, takedowns) but the idea was that it was a way for unsavory characters to settle disputes without permanently damaging the other person. Savate comes from the “practice of wearing shoes without nails or leather soles, to avoid injury.”

Is he credible? I don’t know, but he seems to be and his article has plenty of citations, for what it’s worth. It is behind a pay wall so I can’t share it entirely, but if anyone wants to know more I am happy to share.

The author mentions some origin myths and discounts them. For example, there is apparently a popular myth that savate came from Asia via 18th century sailors to that region.

The upshot on the early history of savate is that is seems to be a uniquely French style of pugilism. Early references suggest that the art has always been associated with duels, and in particular with street hustlers as a way to settle disputes without killing each other.

The earliest, documented reference to savate cited in this article is from The Memoires de Vidocq, published in 1828. Apparently this guy was an ex-convict under Napoleon who ended up being a police prefect. He mentioned in his memoirs that he had to deal with a guy in 1797-1798 who was an “adept of savate” and basically he says he got his *** kicked. Notable, I think, that he refers to savate as a “gymnastic exercise”.

Savate and chausson spread rapidly in the 1830s and it appears to have been pretty well formed.

I didn’t notice any reference to whether the hands had to be open, but I’ll take another look at the article with that in mind. Maybe the author mentioned fists and I just missed it on first reading.

Update: Nothing really about fists or hands, but there is a lot more about the rapid evolution of savate as French boxing, in basically three different directions. The first were acrobatic spectacles. And apparently it wasn’t all that effective as there were accounts of British boxers crushing the French in some contests.

The second was more for self defense from the original practice with guys like Michel Pisseux and Jules Valles. The latter developed something he called “traveler’s boxing”.

The third was somewhere in the middle, but early on was structured more like fencing than what we think of today. The emphasis was on first touch, and because folks would cheat, they would do things to ensure that “touch” was recognized. From putting soot on the soles of the slippers to focusing on knocking the opponent out with one blow.

Eventually, in the 1870s or so, the sport split more into two camps: physical education and fitness, and sport (inspired by the British approach to pugilism).

The author recounted a challenge match between a savate master, Charles Charlemont and the English Marine champion, Jerry Driscoll in 1899. While Driscoll was more effective in the early rounds, Charlemont caught him with a kick in the 8th round that knocked the Englishman out. Reminiscent of the GOAT discussion on this forum, the French declared unequivocal superiority of savate over British boxing, but the Brit’s were quick to dismiss this because Driscoll was “only” the Marine champion and not the English national champion. Either way, for the 300 or so people in the audience, I bet it was a great fight to watch

 

[JowGaWolf]

Lol. Keyword being ONCE.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And there is no history of savate that I can find that agrees with you. Closed fists weren't illegal but could be seen as a lethal weapon in a criminal prosecution. Savate was primarily a street fighting 'style' that transferred nicely to fighting on ships, it originated in Northern France but caught on in Marseille where fighting on board was a bit of a pastime. The word 'savate' means old shoe/slipper, the hard wooden clogs worn in France at the time made kicks very effective. They used open handed strikes which as karateka know can be very effective too.

Dueling was illegal and unsanctioned fights were illegal. I looked up the laws for that period and could not find any mention of a law against fist. The only mention of it is on martial arts sites and Wikipedia.

I get confused because history says it has its origins in street fighting but doesn't use fist, which doesn't sound like street fighting at all.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You see you've just contradicted the story about fists being illegal.

Nope, the link I supplied pointed out that in France a closed fist was considered a deadly weapon, which is what I said to begin with.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Wrong. Again.

Im only speaking from my experience, from what I've seen and from what I've done, in both Taekwondo and in the other arts I mentioned.