Old School Taekwondo Being Practically All Kicks

Hot Lunch

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Apr 25, 2023
Messages
931
Reaction score
465
And one of the best, he even came up with his own style of JKD which is still a popular style today.
Calling it "popular" is a bit of a reach. "Popular" is what I'd call karate, TKD, and BJJ. Is JKD anywhere close to those? Not by a long shot.

I like Chuck Norris too and while he might've never made himself out to be infallible many of his fans have.
Irrelevant.

He has sometimes even been portrayed as a superhero
In a way that is completely fictional, not reflective of how he actually views himself.

and he was good friends with Bruce Lee BTW.
No way, bro. Stop lying.
 

Hot Lunch

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Apr 25, 2023
Messages
931
Reaction score
465
Certainly if "Average" is based on sheer numbers due to the sheer number of WT / Olympic style fighters out there the average would be skewed.
Really, this isn't something I'm interested in debating. For two reasons:

1. I already said that varies based who they're sparring with (karate, MT, etc)
2. The big elephant in the room that no one's talking about: what PhotonGuy is saying isn't something he pulled out of his other end. It all falls perfectly in line with the reputation that TKD has had for decades. Since at least the 80's. And, back to #1, the videos you can find appear to support that reputation.

If anybody wants to say that watching videos on YouTube isn't enough, and that I actually have to train in TKD long enough to get a black belt in order to know what I'm seeing... as bad as an argument as that is, I don't have a good comeback for it.

But what I do want to say is the fight here shouldn't be with PhotonGuy. Either there was a change in TKD and the specifics of that change need to be pointed out, or the reputation is a false one and THAT needs to be addressed.
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
34,538
Reaction score
9,806
Location
North American Tectonic Plate

Hot Lunch

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Apr 25, 2023
Messages
931
Reaction score
465
According to the man himself, Chuck Norris was actually on great terms with Bruce Lee. In fact, he and Lee not only knew each other, but often hung out together and even sparred on occasion

While competing, Norris met Bruce Lee, who at the time was known for the TV series The Green Hornet. They developed a friendship, as well as a training and working relationship.
It was sarcasm. Jesus, I can't believe people actually think they're telling somebody something when they say that Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee were friends.
 

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,679
Reaction score
7,813
Location
Lexington, KY
No way, bro. Stop lying.
I'm not sure if this was meant to be sarcastic or not. Just for the record, Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee were good friends and trained together for a couple of years. (I've seen a letter where Lee claimed that Norris was a student of his, but it would be more accurate to say that they were training partners who shared techniques with each other.)

(Edit, while I was posting this I see that you've added a clarification that it was sarcasm. I'll leave my original response in for any readers who didn't know the facts. Not everyone is familiar with the relationships of famous martial artists from 50 years ago.)
Really, this isn't something I'm interested in debating. For two reasons:

1. I already said that varies based who they're sparring with (karate, MT, etc)
2. The big elephant in the room that no one's talking about: what PhotonGuy is saying isn't something he pulled out of his other end. It all falls perfectly in line with the reputation that TKD has had for decades. Since at least the 80's. And, back to #1, the videos you can find appear to support that reputation.

If anybody wants to say that watching videos on YouTube isn't enough, and that I actually have to train in TKD long enough to get a black belt in order to know what I'm seeing... as bad as an argument as that is, I don't have a good comeback for it.

But what I do want to say is the fight here shouldn't be with PhotonGuy. Either there was a change in TKD and the specifics of that change need to be pointed out, or the reputation is a false one and THAT needs to be addressed.
I think you might have lost track of the original claim by PhotonGuy which is being discussed. PG stated that old school TKD from the inception of the art in the 1950s was practically all kicks. This is demonstrably not true, as evidenced by the earliest available footage of TKD training, the published TKD manuals, and the testimony of those who trained with the first generation of TKD instructors.

As far as the change in TKD over the years which leads to the preponderance of kicks that you observed while surfing YouTube, I believe that has been pointed out in the thread already but I can summarize it briefly.

Original "old school" TKD was primarily Shotokan karate with a few other influences. Over the years, the Korean instructors of TKD worked to differentiate the art from Karate for reasons of national pride (and general antipathy towards the Japanese). One significant aspect of this was an increasing emphasis on kicking in general and high kicks in particular. The development of WT style sport TKD competition in the 70s and the recognition of that style of competition by the Olympics in the 80s led to a large percentage of TKD schools focusing on that aspect of the art.

The members here at MartialTalk skew older than the general population, so you'll find a higher percentage of practitioners who remember and/or still practice and teach the older, more balanced styles of TKD. Random sparring videos on YouTube are statistically more likely to show practitioners from schools that focus on the modern, more sportive styles of TKD, which will include a higher percentage of kicking.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
30,085
Reaction score
10,645
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Really, this isn't something I'm interested in debating. For two reasons:

1. I already said that varies based who they're sparring with (karate, MT, etc)
2. The big elephant in the room that no one's talking about: what PhotonGuy is saying isn't something he pulled out of his other end. It all falls perfectly in line with the reputation that TKD has had for decades. Since at least the 80's. And, back to #1, the videos you can find appear to support that reputation.

If anybody wants to say that watching videos on YouTube isn't enough, and that I actually have to train in TKD long enough to get a black belt in order to know what I'm seeing... as bad as an argument as that is, I don't have a good comeback for it.

But what I do want to say is the fight here shouldn't be with PhotonGuy. Either there was a change in TKD and the specifics of that change need to be pointed out, or the reputation is a false one and THAT needs to be addressed.
I'd point out two issues with relying on videos:

1. There will be more demo and sport videos than anything else. The most common TKD sport rules heavily favor kicks, from my understanding.

2. Kicks (especially flying and spinning) are far more entertaining than punches, so groups that do really good demos are more likely to be heavy on those.

So what you'd see in videos will almost certainly skew in that directly, whether that's the way the training skews, or not. I'll add that if training doesn't skew that way, then the schools that tend to skew it that way will do better in that sport ruleset and do flashier demos, so will likely be over-represented in those videos.

Point being, the videos would show what you're seeing in at least two cases: TKD (including sport and demos) is generally very skewed to kicks, or TKD sport and demos is heavily skewed to kicks while the training is not.
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,599
Reaction score
942
Contemporary!!! My teacher was a student of General Choi, and all he ever trained was TKD, how much more old school do you want.... never mind.... you are not paying attention again and apparently have a point to make... no matter how flawed that point may be....TTFN
What was the name of your instructor?
 
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
4,303
Reaction score
597
I would say TK-D is not like that. But definitely aerial and high kicks tend to impress audiences more than hand techniques so Demos may be skewed toward using those.
So what you're saying is that Taekwondo uses lots of high kicks and aerial techniques when doing demos but not necessarily in everyday practice. Is that right?
 
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
4,303
Reaction score
597
If anybody wants to say that watching videos on YouTube isn't enough, and that I actually have to train in TKD long enough to get a black belt in order to know what I'm seeing... as bad as an argument as that is, I don't have a good comeback for it.
That might not take that long, depending on where you get it, and how much money you're willing to spend. From what I've seen some TKD schools are run like belt factories for the rich.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
30,085
Reaction score
10,645
Location
Hendersonville, NC
That might not take that long, depending on where you get it, and how much money you're willing to spend. From what I've seen some TKD schools are run like belt factories for the rich.
That statement works if you insert nearly any art in the blank, "...some ____ schools are run like belt factories for the rich." It seems to happen eventually in any art that gets enough exposure. Eventually, someone will decide to make as much money as they can, and standards be damned.
 

Hot Lunch

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Apr 25, 2023
Messages
931
Reaction score
465
That statement works if you insert nearly any art in the blank, "...some ____ schools are run like belt factories for the rich." It seems to happen eventually in any art that gets enough exposure. Eventually, someone will decide to make as much money as they can, and standards be damned.
Are you saying that people will buy rank, knowing fully well that they can't back that rank up on the mat? I'm sure that any school would realize that the money gained in the short run will cost them in the long run when new students see this "black belt" on the mat.
 
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
4,303
Reaction score
597
That statement works if you insert nearly any art in the blank, "...some ____ schools are run like belt factories for the rich." It seems to happen eventually in any art that gets enough exposure. Eventually, someone will decide to make as much money as they can, and standards be damned.
True, you will find that to some extent with just about all arts although I've never seen it with BJJ although just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it never happens with BJJ, but I've seen it the most with Taekwondo schools, particularly Taekwondo schools in the USA. That's just what I've seen, that its most common with Taekwondo.
 
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
4,303
Reaction score
597
Are you saying that people will buy rank, knowing fully well that they can't back that rank up on the mat? I'm sure that any school would realize that the money gained in the short run will cost them in the long run when new students see this "black belt" on the mat.
That would work as long as the art that the art isn't one of those arts that's "too lethal" to be used on the mat.
 

isshinryuronin

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
2,010
Reaction score
2,220
I'd point out two issues with relying on videos:

1. There will be more demo and sport videos than anything else. The most common TKD sport rules heavily favor kicks, from my understanding.

2. Kicks (especially flying and spinning) are far more entertaining than punches, so groups that do really good demos are more likely to be heavy on those.

So what you'd see in videos will almost certainly skew in that directly, whether that's the way the training skews, or not. I'll add that if training doesn't skew that way, then the schools that tend to skew it that way will do better in that sport ruleset and do flashier demos, so will likely be over-represented in those videos.

Point being, the videos would show what you're seeing in at least two cases: TKD (including sport and demos) is generally very skewed to kicks, or TKD sport and demos is heavily skewed to kicks while the training is not.
Some good points regarding skewed perception. However, my perception is not based on video, but actual experience. In the early 70's, it seemed a general and widely held consensus that TKD was heavy on kicks, and weak on punches, at least in tournaments (Chuck Norris an exception), and if you got in close, the TKD guy would have little defense and no counter - an easy win for me. TKD judges were already scoring head kicks higher than punches in open tournaments, causing some outrage from non-TKD competitors. Checking out a TKD school near the college I was attending, the master asked only to see some kicks to evaluate my ability. So, during this time period, kicking appears to have already been the top priority.

While away at college during this time I checked out a close by TKD school to work out at. The master
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
30,085
Reaction score
10,645
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Are you saying that people will buy rank, knowing fully well that they can't back that rank up on the mat? I'm sure that any school would realize that the money gained in the short run will cost them in the long run when new students see this "black belt" on the mat.
There's plenty of evidence that some folks want rank more than ability, and that there are people who will grant it.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
30,085
Reaction score
10,645
Location
Hendersonville, NC
True, you will find that to some extent with just about all arts although I've never seen it with BJJ although just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it never happens with BJJ, but I've seen it the most with Taekwondo schools, particularly Taekwondo schools in the USA. That's just what I've seen, that its most common with Taekwondo.
I've only seen it in BJJ among folks who don't, themselves, have real BJJ skill. I'm not sure if they ever trained BJJ, or just decided to give themselves a BB and start teaching while still being at a significantly lower rank. Among big BJJ schools, it'd be damned hard to do. Among smaller schools, it would be easier to fly under the radar for a while. BJJ's culture of competition manages this.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
30,085
Reaction score
10,645
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Some good points regarding skewed perception. However, my perception is not based on video, but actual experience. In the early 70's, it seemed a general and widely held consensus that TKD was heavy on kicks, and weak on punches, at least in tournaments (Chuck Norris an exception), and if you got in close, the TKD guy would have little defense and no counter - an easy win for me. TKD judges were already scoring head kicks higher than punches in open tournaments, causing some outrage from non-TKD competitors. Checking out a TKD school near the college I was attending, the master asked only to see some kicks to evaluate my ability. So, during this time period, kicking appears to have already been the top priority.

While away at college during this time I checked out a close by TKD school to work out at. The master
I was speaking directly to the comment about videos. Personal experience - assuming it's reasonably broad (as yours seems to be) is more reliable.
 

Latest Discussions

Top