Old School Taekwondo Being Practically All Kicks

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PhotonGuy

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General Choi was fond of skewering the mostly Kicks myth by pointing out his system has something like 2000 hand / arm techniques and 1200 foot / leg techniques.
In some Taekwondo schools today it is not a myth. Some Taekwondo schools teach mostly kicks and not much hand strikes, while others do have more hand strikes but you will still find some Taekwondo schools today that are almost completely devoted to kicks.
 
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PhotonGuy

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More mythology. My understanding is that the Okinawan karate masters were predominantly from the upper classes. Certainly this is true of Gichin Funakoshi (the founder of Shotokan) and the instructors he learned from.
The upper class consisted of the Samurai who carried swords so their training was mostly with swords, and also in Ju Jitsu for in close fighting.

For peasants on Okinawa the sword was banned so that's why many karate weapons evolved from common tools such as the bo staff, the nunchaku, the sais, the tonfa, and so forth.
When Funakoshi moved to Japan and started teaching Shotokan, he was largely teaching university students, not farmers and fishermen.
Maybe but Im talking in earlier times, during the golden age of the Samurai which was before Funakoshi's time.
And of course, Japan also had plenty of skilled craftsmen and Korea had plenty of farmers and fishers. I'd have to see some sort of source for the claim that Korea had a higher per capita number of craftsmen than Japan or that TKD was an activity more likely to be practiced by craftsmen than by other professions.
The farmers and fishers were lower class. Craftsmen were more upper class so they would hire guards to protect them.
 

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In some Taekwondo schools today it is not a myth. Some Taekwondo schools teach mostly kicks and not much hand strikes, while others do have more hand strikes but you will still find some Taekwondo schools today that are almost completely devoted to kicks.
This statement is correct. KKW and other WT sport oriented schools will focus heavily on kicking. It's also a complete reversal of your original claim.
 

Tony Dismukes

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For peasants on Okinawa the sword was banned so that's why many karate weapons evolved from common tools such as the bo staff, the nunchaku, the sais, the tonfa, and so forth.
Yes, I'm aware that this is a common myth that has been widely spread regarding the origins of karate. But as a matter of historical fact, the founding masters of Okinawan karate were by and large from the upper classes:

Ank Itosu was born into the aristocratic Pechin class (scholar-bureaucrats, administrators in the government)
Motobu Chki was a member of the Okinawan royal family
Gichin Funakoshi was from a samurai lineage
Chjun Miyagi was the son of a wealthy shop owner
Anko Asato came from a family of hereditary village chiefs
Matsumura Skon was another member of the aristocracy and served as bodyguard to the Okinawan king
etc ...
Maybe but Im talking in earlier times, during the golden age of the Samurai which was before Funakoshi's time.
I'm not sure exactly when you are considering the "golden age of the Samurai." I presume some point prior to the Meiji period. In that case, Japanese karate did not yet exist as Okinawa had not yet been annexed by Japan and the art had not yet been brought to Japan. This is relevant because Tae Kwon Do comes from Shotokan (Japanese) Karate.
The farmers and fishers were lower class. Craftsmen were more upper class so they would hire guards to protect them.
To the extent that this is true, it would have been equally true in Japan, Okinawa, and Korea. So it doesn't serve to explain any differences in how the martial arts developed in those countries.
 

Earl Weiss

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Should also add my teacher was a student of General Choi
To an extent anyone doing the Chang Hon patterns is a student of General Choi. Who was your instructor and when and where was he a "Student of General Choi? "
 

Earl Weiss

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Lumper - There are 4 kicks in TKD, thrusting kicks, roundhouse kicks, hook kicks, and slashing kicks.

Lister - There's front snap kick, front push kick, front rising kick...
I don't know that he was either. First and foremost you would have to understand how he used terminology which of course is not universal across systems. For instance if you were to say "Side Kick" to a Chang Hon person although they might default to the most common "Side Piercing Kick" There are also Side - Pushing, , Checking, Thrusting and even outward pressing (Though pressing is not technically called "Side) , which have different applications, and may be performed differently use different parts of the foot. So, General Choi might be more of what you might call a lister.
 

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In some Taekwondo schools today it is not a myth. Some Taekwondo schools teach mostly kicks and not much hand strikes, while others do have more hand strikes but you will still find some Taekwondo schools today that are almost completely devoted to kicks.
Your post #1 " but I believe originally when Taekwondo was first being developed it was mostly just kicks with very few hand strikes"

Your statement / belief quoted is a myth - or just wrong. As to what some schools do today - it's anyone's guess.
 
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wab25

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I believe originally when Taekwondo was first being developed it was mostly just kicks with very few hand strikes.
General Choi went to Japan. There he studied Shotokan Karate under Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan Karate. General Choi earned a 2nd degree black belt in Shotokan Karate, from Funakoshi. He then opened a Shotokan Dojo, in Japan, with Funakoshi's permission... where he taught Shotokan Karate.

General Choi returned to Korea and helped to create TKD. The original TKD forms, were the Shotokan Kata that Choi learned from Funakoshi. At first the names of the techniques were changed to Korean names, but the Kata names were still Japanese. Then the Form names were made Korean. From there the Forms have gone through many iterations for various reasons as the art progressed.

But, the oldest style TKD, when it was originally created, was Shotokan Karate with some Korean and Chinese influences.... as Tony pointed out. The original forms were the Shotokan Kata that Choi learned from Funakoshi. (these kata are mostly hand techniques, with some kicks)
 

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@Earl Weiss I hadn't heard the terms lumper and lister used like that either until recently, ironically on this site.


I got them from Tony.
Technically, the terms I used were lumper vs splitter, but I think lumper vs lister captures the same basic idea with the added advantage of alliteration
 
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PhotonGuy

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This statement is correct. KKW and other WT sport oriented schools will focus heavily on kicking. It's also a complete reversal of your original claim.
I never made any claim that there aren't any modern TKD schools that don't heavily focus on kicking.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Yes, I'm aware that this is a common myth that has been widely spread regarding the origins of karate. But as a matter of historical fact, the founding masters of Okinawan karate were by and large from the upper classes:

Ank Itosu was born into the aristocratic Pechin class (scholar-bureaucrats, administrators in the government)
Motobu Chki was a member of the Okinawan royal family
Gichin Funakoshi was from a samurai lineage
Chjun Miyagi was the son of a wealthy shop owner
Anko Asato came from a family of hereditary village chiefs
Matsumura Skon was another member of the aristocracy and served as bodyguard to the Okinawan king
etc ...
Then why does karate use common farming implements as weapons? The weapons I mentioned in post #22 are derived from common tools. If the practitioners were upper class they wouldn't need to use such implements as weapons as they would have swords and spears.
I'm not sure exactly when you are considering the "golden age of the Samurai." I presume some point prior to the Meiji period.
Yes, Im talking about the time period between 1185 up until 1868 when the Meiji Restoration occurred which more or less marked the end of the old samurai. Later that same year Funakoshi was born so the Samurai was before his time.
In that case, Japanese karate did not yet exist as Okinawa had not yet been annexed by Japan and the art had not yet been brought to Japan. This is relevant because Tae Kwon Do comes from Shotokan (Japanese) Karate.

To the extent that this is true, it would have been equally true in Japan, Okinawa, and Korea. So it doesn't serve to explain any differences in how the martial arts developed in those countries.
There are different theories as to the development and history of karate but some sources say that it developed in response to weapons being banned which happened as early as the 15th century. People had to be able to defend themselves without the weapons that had been confiscated so that's why, as I stated before, that many of the weapons used in karate originated from common tools not originally used as weapons.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Your post #1 " but I believe originally when Taekwondo was first being developed it was mostly just kicks with very few hand strikes"
That's how I believe Taekwondo was when it was first developed although I could be wrong. I never said that any modern schools of Taekwondo aren't like that. From what I know some modern Taekwondo schools do incorporate lots of hand strikes into the material they teach, some don't.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Hallo

Dieses Thema wird im Buch von Alex Gillis: T繹dliche Kunst- die verborgene Geschiche des Tae Kwon Do- sehr, sehr ausf羹hrlich behandelt.
Chuck Norris stellt in seinem Buch: Meine Karatetechniken -erfolgreich in Angriff und Abwehr- deutsche Ausgabe Falken-Sport -
sein Tang Soo Do vor. Das ist Shotokan Karate muss es auch sein da alle bekannten Meister der Kampfsportart koreanisches Karate das Karate entweder in Japan oder Okinawa gelernt hatten.

Dann m繹chte ich es mir erlauben, hinzuzuf羹gen.
In Deutschland gibt es einen groen Unterschied:

Taekwondo der WT - olympisches Taekwondo - 羹berwiegend Beintechniken
mit Brustpanzer und Kopfschutz.

Taekwon-Do der ITF ( 3 oder noch mehr Verb瓣nde ) das Taekwon-Do das General Choi
in der Zeit als Botschafter in Malaysia ver瓣nderte, neue Formen, neue Techniken.
Wettkampf im Leichtkontakt - mit Hand- Fu-und Kopfschutz-

Taekwon-Do -traditionell - besonders in Deutschland, sterreich, - bekannt.
Kwon Jae-Hwa 7. Dan, ein Mitglied des ACE -Teams unter General Choi Hong- hi - unterrichtete in M羹nchen in den Sportschulen von Wiedmeier diese - ohne Kontakt - ausgef羹hrte Kampfsport-Art.

Daher w羹rde ich Taekwon-Do immer nach dem Verband beurteilen.
Das ist meine Meinung.:) :)
Hallo und willkommen bei MartialTalk. Wir freuen uns, Mitglieder aus der ganzen Welt zu haben, m繹chten Sie jedoch daran erinnern, dass gem瓣 unseren Nutzungsbedingungen alle Beitr瓣ge haupts瓣chlich auf Englisch verfasst sein m羹ssen. Vielen Dank f羹r Ihre Mitarbeit!

(Hi, and welcome to MartialTalk. We love having members from around the globe, but this is your reminder that per our Terms of Service all posts must be primarily in English. Thanks for your cooperation!)
 

Earl Weiss

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General Choi returned to Korea and helped to create TKD. The original TKD forms, were the Shotokan Kata that Choi learned from Funakoshi.

But, the oldest style TKD,
1. General Choi did not "help" create TK-D. he created TK-D but of course he had help from numerous experienced Martial Artists that he recruited into the 29th infantry division but as his hands on Instructor Nam Tae hi recounted it was if General Choi was the director and he was the actor. he would meet with General Choi and learn how and what to teach the troops. It was General Choi who lobbied hard for the name, developed and dispatched instructors to demonstrate and teach the art, and recruited Korean instructors from throughout the world to adopt and teach his ar. Considering travel and communication realities the plan worked amazingly well for the first 19 years or so until the Korean government chose to support another system.

2. The first TK-D forms can be found in General Choi's 1965 book along with the Shorin and Shore forms they were built upon. The similarities are undeniable but to say they were Shotokan (not Shorin or Shorei) is an oversimplification 0
 

Earl Weiss

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That's how I believe Taekwondo was when it was first developed although I could be wrong. I never said that any modern schools of Taekwondo aren't like that. From what I know some modern Taekwondo schools do incorporate lots of hand strikes into the material they teach, some don't.
Sir, I understand your "belief" . Point of my post (and someone else on this board) is your belief is mistaken.
 

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That's how I believe Taekwondo was when it was first developed although I could be wrong. I never said that any modern schools of Taekwondo aren't like that. From what I know some modern Taekwondo schools do incorporate lots of hand strikes into the material they teach, some don't.
And this entire thread is people telling you you're wrong. But I'm guessing this will just become another of those dead horse you flog ad nauseum.
 

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And this entire thread is people telling you you're wrong. But I'm guessing this will just become another of those dead horse you flog ad nauseum.
giphy.webp


What he said
 

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