Ok, this reaks of a pi$$ing contest!

[granfire]

Ok, this fall Alabama passed the most restrictive 'immigration law' in the nation to date.
it had some immediate fallout, of course, and of course in the target population as well.

now, there are other immigrants here as well (as a quick reminder, the state has lured 3 international automakers in, I am sure there are other businesses as well): It seems police have been writing tickets to employees of said car makers, from Japan and Germany, because according to the law they did not have proper identification handy....ouch, that it NOT they way the law was aimed to go!

:lfao:

 

[ballen0351]

Ok, this fall Alabama passed the most restrictive 'immigration law' in the nation to date.
it had some immediate fallout, of course, and of course in the target population as well.

now, there are other immigrants here as well (as a quick reminder, the state has lured 3 international automakers in, I am sure there are other businesses as well): It seems police have been writing tickets to employees of said car makers, from Japan and Germany, because according to the law they did not have proper identification handy....ouch, that it NOT they way the law was aimed to go!

:lfao:

So when they stop them and they dont have proper ID they are not supposed to ticket them because they are German? Im not sure what your trying to say. How was the law AIMED?

 

[Xue Sheng]

So basically you are saying that a large tech company that recently moved into my area would not move there because many of the employees they are starting with are form Singapore....so the other 1000 or so local jobs would not happen either... and of course future companies from other countries may look elsewhere to avoid issues....sounds like a great idea

 

[granfire]

So when they stop them and they dont have proper ID they are not supposed to ticket them because they are German? Im not sure what your trying to say. How was the law AIMED?

oh come on, don't be dense.

The law is crap.

if you don't have documentation on you proving you are there legally they can detain you indefinitely. Goody, eh?

So leaving your wallet at home can get you a stint in county. For as long as the people in charge think it takes to establish your paperwork.

You know who the law is aimed at. the same people similar laws are aimed at.

The law had not had far reaching effects past people not going to work or kids not going to school since the majority of the areas 'those people' work were declining at the time of the law going into effect, like farming and construction. Things will be interesting once both are supposed to pick up again in spring.

But ticketing a manager for Mercedes and I am sure the Fellow from Japan wasn't working on the assembly line, yes, it's by the law, but please, don't pi$$ down my back and tell me it's raining! The law is not popular.

so yeah, those tickets read to me like a finger in the eye, because there are a LOT of immigrants here. and as usual well intended laws can backfire in a hurry when care is not taken!

 

[crushing]

So when they stop them and they dont have proper ID they are not supposed to ticket them because they are German? Im not sure what your trying to say. How was the law AIMED?

Good question. The confusion lies in how the media reports on these laws. In addition to their failure to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration, in their efforts to portray the laws as racist, they conveniently ignore that these laws also apply to illegal immigrants from all countries, not just Mexico. It's equal opportunity harrassment.

Please realize that noticing these facts do not necessarily mean I agree with these laws meant to crackdown on illegal immigration and certainly isn't a defense of such laws.

 

[ballen0351]

oh come on, don't be dense.

The law is crap.

Then dont move to Alabama. Thats whats cool about this country you dont like a law in a state you dont have to live there. If the people of Alabama think its crap they can have it changed.

if you don't have documentation on you proving you are there legally they can detain you indefinitely. Goody, eh?

Thats a LIE did you even read the bill or you just get your talking points from the DailyKos?
Directly quoted from the LAW:
Any alien who is arrested and booked into custody shall have his or her immigration status determined pursuant to 8 U.S.C. § 1373(c). The alien’s immigration status shall be verified by contacting the federal government pursuant to 8 U.S.C. § 1373(c) within 24 hours of the time of the alien’s arrest. If for any reason federal verification pursuant to 8 U.S.C. § 1373(c) is delayed beyond the time that the alien would otherwise be released from custody, the alien shall be released from custody.

So leaving your wallet at home can get you a stint in county. For as long as the people in charge think it takes to establish your paperwork.

Well when I go to another country I make sure I keep my ID on me at all times. Its simple really its their country I follow their laws.
(d) A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer any of the following:
(1) A valid, unexpired Alabama driver’s license.
(2) A valid, unexpired Alabama nondriver identification card.
(3) A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification bearing a photograph or other biometric identifier.
(4) Any valid United States federal or state government issued identification document bearing a photograph or other biometric identifier, if issued by an entity that requires proof of lawful presence in the United States before issuance.
(5) A foreign passport with an unexpired United States Visa and a corresponding stamp or notation by the United States Department of Homeland Security indicating the bearer’s admission to the United States.
(6) A foreign passport issued by a visa waiver country with the corresponding entry stamp and unexpired duration of stay annotation or an I-94W form by the United States Department of Homeland Security indicating the bearer’s admission to the United States.

You know who the law is aimed at. the same people similar laws are aimed at.

Right the brown people I forgot. Too bad the facts dont support this you already proved it in you 1 post. But again from the LAW:

A law enforcement officer may not consider race, color, or national origin in implementing the requirements of this section except to the extent permitted by the United States Constitution or the Constitution of Alabama of 1901.

The law had not had far reaching effects past people not going to work or kids not going to school since the majority of the areas 'those people' work were declining at the time of the law going into effect, like farming and construction. Things will be interesting once both are supposed to pick up again in spring.

So your saying the law had NO effect on "those People" which again proves your racist southern republicans to be wrong.

But ticketing a manager for Mercedes and I am sure the Fellow from Japan wasn't working on the assembly line, yes, it's by the law, but please, don't pi$$ down my back and tell me it's raining! The law is not popular.

If its not popular then the People of Alabama can have it changed

so yeah, those tickets read to me like a finger in the eye, because there are a LOT of immigrants here. and as usual well intended laws can backfire in a hurry when care is not taken!

Seem to me the tickets show the law is being applied regardless of race and prove then law wasnt "aimed" at any color of people

 

[clfsean]

I've always said the best thing about Alabama was I-20 East or West bound... :s186:

 

[ballen0351]

http://latindispatch.com/2011/06/09/text-of-alabama-immigration-law-hb-56/
The law if your actually interested in reading what it REALLY says

 

[Tez3]

Surely it's easy to find out whether a person is in the country legally or not just during the time you are talking to them, a call to the immigration authorities to determine the status of the person surely only takes minutes? Detaining someone while checking their status seems to be a lot of work, time and cost for something that could be checked so easily.

 

[ballen0351]

So let me ask this then. We have Millions of people in this country illegally already and more come every day. We have a fed govt that refuses to do anything to stop it. A state decides it can't afford to keep supporting these people what should they do? What should the feds do?

 

[elder999]

Surely it's easy to find out whether a person is in the country legally or not just during the time you are talking to them, a call to the immigration authorities to determine the status of the person surely only takes minutes?

Mostly, no.. You'd think, though, sure, but the mechanism isn't really set up to do it that way-the way the system is set up, detention is necessary, and length of detention may well be dependent upon day of the week or time of day: INS administration isn't a 24 hr. operation: it's Monday to Friday, 10 hrs. a day. If you were detained by the Border Patrol at 4 on a Friday, you'd likely still be detained come Monday morning, when your status could be checked. Never mind regular law-enforcement.

A really good example is my father-in-law. As a boy, he was a war refugee to the U.S. from Latvia. He was in his teens when he came here,and was raised in Kansas. He's a U.S. citizen, and held a Q clearance at Los Alamos lab for nearly 40 years.

He steel szounds lahk Rooshian spy, though>Da?.....:lol:

So, if pop were driving through Alabama and got pulled over for, well, for driving like he's 77 years old, and the cop ran his license okay, but was suspicious of the way he sounds, and asks for proof of huis being here legally, just how is he supposed to do that? Most of us don't carry around our birth-certificates, or passports-sure, if he were a "legal" immigrant he might just have his green-card, but he's no longer a "resident alien"; he's a U.S. citizen. Likewise, the many Spanish people from New Mexico, descendents of conquistadors, who are citizens of the U.S., but spoke Spanish first in the home, and have Spanish surnames-how, and why do they have to prove that they are U.S. citizens. Heck, NM gives licenses to illegal aliens, and they're not the only state to do so-most states' licenses do not qualify as proof of citizenship or legal residence. This is why state laws like this are problematic:they infringe on territory more properly handled at the federal level, and are knee jerk reactions to a misperception of the problem.

And Gran's right: come next harvest in Alabama, let's see how many U.S. citizens are willing to pick tomatos in the heat of the Alabama summer sun and humidity. All day. For 18 hours a day. Every day. For weeks. For not very much money.

Crops have already rotted, and farms lost because of this law, the additional burden it places on farmers and the loss of most of their trained workforce.

 

[ballen0351]

Elder you didn't read the law either. It clearly states a govt issued drivers license issued from any other state is valid proof. The officer can't ask for more then that. Your grandfather would be sent on his merry way. The prob with the law is nobody has read it but everyone has an opinion on it because they heard it was evil from msnbc or theLAtimes or where ever.

 

[granfire]

Rest assure, people who don't like the law do move.
those who can't work to get it over turned.

Seem to me the tickets show the law is being applied regardless of race and prove then law wasnt "aimed" at any color of people

:lfao:
I buy you a beer if you actually believe that!
That's Barney Fife arresting the mayor for loitering.

We are talking about people who are employed by 2 of the major providers of work for the state, you know, the really good, coveted jobs!

The law is not popular, even the police does not want to enforce it.
So they enforce it in the nonsensical way.

How long does it take to confirm your status?
I have no idea.
I can tell you however that it took my Aunt, resident of this great nation for several decades over a year to get her green card renewed....I do not care to imagine her having been caught in a situation were she had to prove her legal status during that time. The biggest problem for her was on whether she would have been able to return home after visiting her aging mother.

It takes a level of density to not see where 'immigration laws' are aimed in the current climate. And Mr Magoo can see where all of this is headed when applied as worded.

The numbers on paper make sense: X number of people looking for work, Y number of prospective positions available if the brown people are not there. (and no, don't make it a racist Southern thing either) So we make a law to send brown people packing, right?

Well, too bad the the xs and ys never really intersected. The people need jobs but are either not willing or able to perform the y jobs. That's why they are not working int eh y jobs and never have. Because they have always been there, and won't go away any time soon.

yes, the police enforce the law as written
And they are laying on the table as to how badly it was thought out.


yes, the polemic element scored one getting the law passed.
Mudding the waters and I bet you, they didn't think about the foreign cash cows they have instate.

 

[elder999]

Elder you didn't read the law either. It clearly states a govt issued drivers license issued from any other state is valid proof. The officer can't ask for more then that. Your grandfather would be sent on his merry way. The prob with the law is nobody has read it but everyone has an opinion on it because they heard it was evil from msnbc or theLAtimes or where ever.

I'm not so sure, frankly. (BTW, not my grandfather, my father-in-law. My family have always been "U.S. citizens"...:lol: ) New Mexico and several other states issue licenses to illegal immigrants, intentionally. More to the point, most states will issue licenses to tourists on long-term visas, and many of those people become "illegal immigrants" when they overstay their visa-and they have licenses. And, like gran said, a bunch of people left when the law was passed-farms have already failed because of this.


To clarify, a license is not "proof of citizenship," or proof of legal status-these are determined by the U.S Bureau of CItizenship and Immigration. This makes the law (which I did read) invalid under U.S. code, in that it accepts a document as proof of something-whether it's citizenship or legal residency-that it is not valid proof of at all.

And, if what you say is true, the foreign fellows in gran's O.P. would have displayed their drivers license and "gone on their merry way," which doesn't seem to be the case at all.....

 

[ballen0351]

I'm not so sure, frankly. (BTW, not my grandfather, my father-in-law. My family have always been "U.S. citizens"...:lol: )

Sorry I was on a cell phone the letters are small and my eyes not so good as I get older.

New Mexico and several other states issue licenses to illegal immigrants, intentionally.

Those all have written on them they are not to be used for federal identification. I forget the name of the atual law Ill look it up when I get to work but I beleve it was a provision in the Patriot Act that requires a SSN or valid immigration paperwork like a greencard to be issued a valid ID or Driver license. I want to say its call the "Real ID Act" but that may be wrong. I only learned of it in my current job. I work Vice/Narcotics and do mainly undercover operations. with that I get many Drivers licenses issued to me with various face names. At one time it was easy to walk into the DMV show my police Id and give them my new name and in 20 min I had my ID. NOt anymore due to this fed law. I now have 3 options
#1 I have to link the fake ID to my real SSN#. Someone runs my fake info and the fake info will come back but it will also be flagged and say this ID is linked to and give my real info.
#2 dont provide a SSN# and I get my fake id with "NOT VALID FOR FEDERAL GOVT IDENTIFICATION" in big black letter across the top. Thats a default in the system that cant be remove even for Law Enforcememnt.
#3 I have to apply to he Social Security Admin to a special Law Enforcement section and a few months later I get a Fake SSN# I can then use to get my fake Driver license.
This is a Federal law and all states as far as I was told are required to follow it. My state is an Amnesty state and will issue Drivers licenses to Illegals but they all have that waring on the top.

licenses to tourists on long-term visas, and many of those people become "illegal immigrants" when they overstay their visa-and they have licenses. And, like gran said, a bunch of people left when the law was passed-farms have already failed because of this.

Hopefully states are smart enough to make the expiration date on the drivers license match the visa exp dates. Either way at some point the Drivers license will expire and according to the Alabama law you must provide a non-expired valid license.

As for people leaving well that just proves how many peole were in Alabama Illegally. Thats the important word ILLEGAL. Im all for legal immigration. There a millions of work visas issued every year during farming season. Get rid of the illegal workers and issue more legal visas to make up the difference. My mother is not a US Citizen she was born and raised in Germany until she was 5. She still has a green card. Its not hard she keeps it in her wallet with her drivers license. Your not supposed to drive a car without a license anyway so make sure you have it.

 

[granfire]

Sorry I was on a cell phone the letters are small and my eyes not so good as I get older.

Those all have written on them they are not to be used for federal identification. I forget the name of the atual law Ill look it up when I get to work but I beleve it was a provision in the Patriot Act that requires a SSN or valid immigration paperwork like a greencard to be issued a valid ID or Driver license. I want to say its call the "Real ID Act" but that may be wrong. I only learned of it in my current job. I work Vice/Narcotics and do mainly undercover operations. with that I get many Drivers licenses issued to me with various face names. At one time it was easy to walk into the DMV show my police Id and give them my new name and in 20 min I had my ID. NOt anymore due to this fed law. I now have 3 options
#1 I have to link the fake ID to my real SSN#. Someone runs my fake info and the fake info will come back but it will also be flagged and say this ID is linked to and give my real info.
#2 dont provide a SSN# and I get my fake id with "NOT VALID FOR FEDERAL GOVT IDENTIFICATION" in big black letter across the top. Thats a default in the system that cant be remove even for Law Enforcememnt.
#3 I have to apply to he Social Security Admin to a special Law Enforcement section and a few months later I get a Fake SSN# I can then use to get my fake Driver license.
This is a Federal law and all states as far as I was told are required to follow it. My state is an Amnesty state and will issue Drivers licenses to Illegals but they all have that waring on the top.




Hopefully states are smart enough to make the expiration date on the drivers license match the visa exp dates. Either way at some point the Drivers license will expire and according to the Alabama law you must provide a non-expired valid license.

As for people leaving well that just proves how many peole were in Alabama Illegally. Thats the important word ILLEGAL. Im all for legal immigration. There a millions of work visas issued every year during farming season. Get rid of the illegal workers and issue more legal visas to make up the difference. My mother is not a US Citizen she was born and raised in Germany until she was 5. She still has a green card. Its not hard she keeps it in her wallet with her drivers license. Your not supposed to drive a car without a license anyway so make sure you have it.

as you have done this week with abundance, you have skirted the points and averted the issues.


The issue is that the law is crap

It was well meant, I am sure, but it was riding on the wave of the depression and unemployment rates.


Now the fallout happens.

And as the timing goes, it was outgoing growing season. so the farms lost money, but not too badly. Yet.
Construction was down a bit from the recession, but with this spring's massive storms, there is a major upswing to expect once the monies are cleared. According to statistics, the state lacks skilled craftsmen as it is. For years.

Now lets see how things turn out in Spring....

However.
The people who made this morning's headlines are not the brown people.
the job takers.
Those belong to the folks that create jobs. (not to mention that the Japanese guys made their workers available to pitch in during storm cleanup as well)

The police made the law non racist by applying it - as written - but certainly not as intended.

I personally find that hilarious.

But at this time certainly everybody with a Spanish surname has a big bull's eye on their backs, better now leave the driver's license at home.
And even then...don't cops have to follow up if they suspect a forgery? You know make sure.....

 

[ballen0351]

Oh its crap ok. Sorry I thought you were looking for a real conversation on the issue. I didn't know we were just supposed to ignore The facts and talk like 2 year olds. Well. Now i know what you looking for I think illegal immigrants are doo doo heads there

 

[jks9199]

Surely it's easy to find out whether a person is in the country legally or not just during the time you are talking to them, a call to the immigration authorities to determine the status of the person surely only takes minutes? Detaining someone while checking their status seems to be a lot of work, time and cost for something that could be checked so easily.

Not really. ICE isn't the easiest group to contact in the first place, and, as far as I know, there is still no actual electronically accessible records about visa expiration. We have a lot of channels for people to illegal enter or remain in the country. I've seen rather high numbers for au pairs, seasonal workers, and the like who enter legitimately, and simply don't leave...

 

[jks9199]

Rest assure, people who don't like the law do move.
those who can't work to get it over turned.



:lfao:
I buy you a beer if you actually believe that!
That's Barney Fife arresting the mayor for loitering.

We are talking about people who are employed by 2 of the major providers of work for the state, you know, the really good, coveted jobs!

The law is not popular, even the police does not want to enforce it.
So they enforce it in the nonsensical way.

Sorry -- but that's not how it works. Cops don't sit around and say "this law is crap; let's enforce it in silly ways till they change it." Cops enforce the law when they have to. If it's a problematic law, you may see more discretionary releases or other forms of not enforcing it unless the cop's hands are tied -- but they still will enforce a law when it comes time. If they really don't like it... well, if there's no PC, there's no arrest.

How long does it take to confirm your status?
I have no idea.
I can tell you however that it took my Aunt, resident of this great nation for several decades over a year to get her green card renewed....I do not care to imagine her having been caught in a situation were she had to prove her legal status during that time. The biggest problem for her was on whether she would have been able to return home after visiting her aging mother.

It takes a level of density to not see where 'immigration laws' are aimed in the current climate. And Mr Magoo can see where all of this is headed when applied as worded.

The numbers on paper make sense: X number of people looking for work, Y number of prospective positions available if the brown people are not there. (and no, don't make it a racist Southern thing either) So we make a law to send brown people packing, right?

Well, too bad the the xs and ys never really intersected. The people need jobs but are either not willing or able to perform the y jobs. That's why they are not working int eh y jobs and never have. Because they have always been there, and won't go away any time soon.

yes, the police enforce the law as written
And they are laying on the table as to how badly it was thought out.


yes, the polemic element scored one getting the law passed.
Mudding the waters and I bet you, they didn't think about the foreign cash cows they have instate.

The 287g program is set up to train local law enforcement officers as immigration officers, working under ICE supervision. It's got a place -- and my opinion is the best place is in the jail. That way, you're dealing with people who are already locked up for something before you go all ICE on them. I'm not a fan of this law in Alabama or similar acts. But I inquire during every custodial arrest, as required by law and GOs.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm not a fan of this law in Alabama or similar acts. But I inquire during every cutodial arests.

Im not a real "fan" either. I think local police are busy enough we dont need to be doing the feds job but whats a state supposed to do? The feds wont stop the flood of illegals and the states are stuck paying the bill. Something needs to be done.