Officer stabbed in a school...

[sgtmac_46]

This one rates right up there with "why didnt he just shoot him in the leg or something".

Yeah, no kidding........bottom line, the officer not only has an obligation to protect his OWN life........but if he gets taken out, now the kid not only has a knife, but he also has a GUN!

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'd have shot him if he even displayed a knife and was advancing on me...screw trying to disarm him. Anybody who proposes knife disarms as anything except a last ditch, do or die, proposition knows little about the realities of self-defense.

Anyone who suggests choosing to go hands on with a knife attacker IF the other option is easily shoot them, obviously knows ZERO about knife attacks and defense and how they usually turn out......Uncle Kim's Esoteric skills of the Orient knife disarm class aside.

That's no slight against the OP........we all have had some poor ideas at one time or another. The fact that Destroyer asks illustrates an interest in learning........so let this be the first lesson. Knives are DANGEROUS!

 

[tallgeese]

I think just about all the responses are dead on here.

The officer was presented with a deadly force threat and responded in an appropriate manner.

Sounds like a good shoot to me.

 

[seasoned]

Once the officer was stabbed, the threat needed to be stopped. Shooting the suspect was the logical thing to do, for fear of arming the suspect not only with a knife, but the officers firearm as well.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Once the officer was stabbed, the threat needed to be stopped. Shooting the suspect was the logical thing to do, for fear of arming the suspect not only with a knife, but the officers firearm as well.

Excellent point!

It's a point I believe many people miss when the discussion of law enforcement use of force comes up. Many people forget (or never understand) the fact that an LEO's job is not only protect himself from harm, but ALSO to intervene to protect society from the actions of individuals who have shown, by word and deed, that they intend to harm others.

It's an important point, because unlike the average person, who retreating from the situation is enough, the LEO's job IS to stop the situation using whatever means are necessary.......so even in situations where the LEO may possibly be able to retreat, he is mandated, if the situation requires, to engage and end a threat to the public as a whole, and not retreat if retreating would allow a threat to continue.

 

[Allen a.k.a. Destroyer]

A knife is lethal force........period. The appropriate response to lethal force is not slap and tickle.

Tickle..? You really don't know me. lol

But seriously... The opinions here have definitely gotten me considering firearms for personal defense again. It's just a matter of training, permit, and finding a favorite.

If anyone has any reccomendations as to caliber or great places to get a conceal and carry permit for multiple states (I travel a little) etc. I would welcome the input. Please send me a pm. Thanks! I've kinda got my eye on a .45 silvertip round after reading a reccomendation in this:
http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/external/surviving_armed_assaults,
something that would stop a person dead in their tracks. Guns were made for a singular purpose afterall... why get something that takes 4 or 5 shots to do it? I've heard stories of guys taking entire revolver loads of a smaller caliber and still come for a few seconds... If i had to draw, I wouldn't want to give them that much time.

And I swear... next person that suggests I "tickle" to disarm... oh hell no. In combat hapkido we have these things called military combatives... yeah... it's called a maim. Usually a permanent condition...

Definitions of 'maim'
(mām)

Dictionary.com · The American Heritage® Dictionary - (2 definitions)


[Middle English maimen, from Old French mahaignier; see mayhem.]
(transitive verb: maimed, maim·ing, maims.)

1. To disable or disfigure, usually by depriving of the use of a limb or other part of the body. See synonyms at batter1
2. To make imperfect or defective; impair.

(derivatives)

maiḿer noun
Synonyms
cripple
dismember
mutilate

 

[Allen a.k.a. Destroyer]

See section 10, "Deadly Force and the Force Continuum" of the Newbie's Guide to Self Defense:

http://lklawson.isa-geek.org/sync/Martial_Arts/Newbies_Guide_to_Self_Defense_1-0.txt

Thanks Kirk! I'll definitely read through it all, as well.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Tickle..? You really don't know me. lol

But seriously... The opinions here have definitely gotten me considering firearms for personal defense again. It's just a matter of training, permit, and finding a favorite.

If anyone has any reccomendations as to caliber or great places to get a conceal and carry permit for multiple states (I travel a little) etc. I would welcome the input. Please send me a pm. Thanks! I've kinda got my eye on a .45 silvertip round after reading a reccomendation in this:
http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/external/surviving_armed_assaults,
something that would stop a person dead in their tracks. Guns were made for a singular purpose afterall... why get something that takes 4 or 5 shots to do it? I've heard stories of guys taking entire revolver loads of a smaller caliber and still come for a few seconds... If i had to draw, I wouldn't want to give them that much time.

And I swear... next person that suggests I "tickle" to disarm... oh hell no. In combat hapkido we have these things called military combatives... yeah... it's called a maim. Usually a permanent condition...

Definitions of 'maim'
(mām)

Dictionary.com · The American Heritage® Dictionary - (2 definitions)


[Middle English maimen, from Old French mahaignier; see mayhem.]
(transitive verb: maimed, maim·ing, maims.)

1. To disable or disfigure, usually by depriving of the use of a limb or other part of the body. See synonyms at batter1
2. To make imperfect or defective; impair.

(derivatives)

maiḿer noun
Synonyms
cripple
dismember
mutilate

Knives kill. Anything you can do with your hands, can be done far more efficiently with a blade....and MORE.....you can't disembowel with your barehands.......you can't severe arteries and nerves, penetrate to vital organs, severe limbs.......and therein lies the disparity.


With all due respect to Hapkido....and Hapkido is an excellent art....it's not primarily a blade art, even though it teaches knife defense.

The FMA's are blade arts.......I recommend supplementing your knowledge in the knife with the FMA's. A different perspective is gained by actively training in the offensive use of the blade. It grants one a better understanding and respect of the blade than simply training defense drills against wooden and plastic training knives.

Training the offensive mindset of how to to penetrate another persons defenses with a blade for maximum damage tends to bust a lot of 'Knife defense' myths.




Check out Dog Brothers DLO 1 and 2.

RESPECT THE BLADE!

 

[Allen a.k.a. Destroyer]

Knives kill. Anything you can do with your hands, can be done far more efficiently with a blade....and MORE.....you can't disembowel with your barehands.......you can't severe arteries and nerves, penetrate to vital organs, severe limbs.......and therein lies the disparity.


With all due respect to Hapkido....and Hapkido is an excellent art....it's not primarily a blade art, even though it teaches knife defense.

The FMA's are blade arts.......I recommend supplementing your knowledge in the knife with the FMA's. A different perspective is gained by actively training in the offensive use of the blade. It grants one a better understanding and respect of the blade than simply training defense drills against wooden and plastic training knives.

Training the offensive mindset of how to to penetrate another persons defenses with a blade for maximum damage tends to bust a lot of 'Knife defense' myths.




Check out Dog Brothers DLO 1 and 2.

RESPECT THE BLADE!

Right. Thanks for the link. It's just that you are the second person to suggest I "tickle" to disarm. I just wanted to clarify.

My long time sparring partner and training buddy trains across the country in a school that does some FMA. We get together on occasion and swap training methods and techniques. And of course, spar. One of the more interesting knife drills involved trying to disarm or stop the attack when it wasn't a preset attack just for technique practice's sake. But even then, there's a flaw in drills like that... you still know there's a knife coming.

Comic relief: Maybe I need to hire someone like Kato from the Pink Panther movies (the first ones) to just randomly attack me with weapons to keep me "sharp". lol kidding

 

[sgtmac_46]

Right. Thanks for the link. It's just that you are the second person to suggest I "tickle" to disarm. I just wanted to clarify.

My long time sparring partner and training buddy trains across the country in a school that does some FMA. We get together on occasion and swap training methods and techniques. And of course, spar. One of the more interesting knife drills involved trying to disarm or stop the attack when it wasn't a preset attack just for technique practice's sake. But even then, there's a flaw in drills like that... you still know there's a knife coming.

Comic relief: Maybe I need to hire someone like Kato from the Pink Panther movies (the first ones) to just randomly attack me with weapons to keep me "sharp". lol kidding

Good idea! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA8QrOAghZ0&feature=related

 

[lklawson]

The FMA's are blade arts.......

Some of them, yes.

I recommend supplementing your knowledge in the knife with the FMA's.

Or ANY primarily knife/blade oriented art.

Granted, FMA's are generally more available, but they're not the only thing going.

A different perspective is gained by actively training in the offensive use of the blade. It grants one a better understanding and respect of the blade than simply training defense drills against wooden and plastic training knives.

I distinctly recall the first time I started applying standard knife offense to Tomiki Tanto Randori as the attacker. I'd never done Tanto Randori before and didn't know the "rules." After slashing the ever living crap out of my randori opponent, I was unceremoniously informed that I was attacking wrong (you've seen the Jim Carrey karate skit, right?). Seems that the only legal attack with the tanto in Tanto Randori is a fully committed thrust to the torso concomitant with a step. Think "reverse punch while holding a tanto."

And even then people were getting "stabbed" by a foam tube "tanto" more often than they were defending against it.

Training the offensive mindset of how to to penetrate another persons defenses with a blade for maximum damage tends to bust a lot of 'Knife defense' myths.

"No Lie" blades, magic markers, and "Shok-Knives" are fun tools as well.

Check out Dog Brothers DLO 1 and 2.

I like the DB stuff. Good group. Love their catch phrase.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Allen a.k.a. Destroyer]

Shock... knives..? *raises eyebrow*
Search reveals www.shocknife.com this..?

Oh my... a very nice play pretty. Er, I mean... Training Tool! Yes, for training... hahah. Too bad I'm not a school owner yet, lol. Can't afford that now. Maybe I can talk an instructor into getting certified. It's a great idea!

As for "attacking wrong"... no. Bleeding to death from many slashes and stabs is just as effective as a good stab in the heart, lung or other vital organ. I've seen that skit:

"You attacked me wrong!" lol


Kudos on the movie link sgtmac! Nail on the head.

Humor is the spice of life.

 

[lklawson]

Shock... knives..? *raises eyebrow*
Search reveals www.shocknife.com this..?

Oh my... a very nice play pretty. Er, I mean... Training Tool! Yes, for training... hahah. Too bad I'm not a school owner yet, lol. Can't afford that now. Maybe I can talk an instructor into getting certified. It's a great idea!

They're still just a training tool, of course. They've got some drawbacks as well. No tool is perfect. They're HARD so some of the things you do in sparring might need to be passed on or such. I'd say not to snipe to the hands with these bad boys. Too easy to break a small bone. And you should be aware that not everyone reacts the same way. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Part of the goal of "Shock-Knives" is to push adrenal stress and adrenal dumps. I let myself go into adrenal dump pretty easily in pretty much all of my sparring (knife/bowie/'hawk/singlestick/bata/Judo/whatever). So I accept that my fine motor skills are impacted, though not so much as some others - I've learned how to work around/with and somewhat mitigate, but there's only so much you can do; tying a shoe is rough, give up threading a needle.

Anyway, I'm getting away from myself here. So, when a friend of mine brought Shock Knives to a seminar, I had to try them out. I barely felt them, even at the highest setting, during sparring. Adrenal dump. Yeah, they're freaking intimidating sounding when you trigger the button; sparks flashing and cracking loudly all over. But I felt only a sort of distant buzzing feeling when they hit me. I imagine if someone snuck up behind me while I was unaware and jammed one in my side I'd darn well feel it. But not while Fight or Flight was coursing through my veins.

And that's not a bad thing. It's an important lesson. There's a reason that some tough cusses can take such a beating and keep coming, all busted up and broken. Some people are conditioned to ignore pain and some people are Adrenal Dumping. God help you. You can stink'n well KILL a person and his body just not know it yet. Word to the wise.

Another issue with the "Shock Knives" is that they're expensive as all heck. Last time I checked there were some mil surplus firearms that cost less. And, despite the price, they're still mechanical devices that are vulnerable to breakage, loss, theft, and general wear (one of those Shock Knives my friend brought just plain broke during the weekend).

I understand that there may be someone making a competing product but I've not yet seen one in person (or even piccys on the net). So there's a bit of single-source vendor lock in as well unless you're willing to try to build your own (I'm working on a set but back shelved them last year because of time constraints).

As for "attacking wrong"... no. Bleeding to death from many slashes and stabs is just as effective as a good stab in the heart, lung or other vital organ.

In the Western Martial Arts (WMA) tradition there is a debate dating back centuries (quite literally) over which is more effective the cut or the thrust. I've seen historic documents arguing one side or the other from the very distant past (think "Romans") and just two weeks ago saw a modern debate on the same topic in another popular fourm devoted to WMA blade skills.

I've seen that skit:

"You attacked me wrong!" lol

Kudos on the movie link sgtmac! Nail on the head.

Humor is the spice of life.

It's a spice that has a taste of truth to it. Makes it memorable. We're fortunate that the skit was recorded. I'm still hunting for the William Shatner SNL skits online. They must be there, right? ;-)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk