Officer stabbed in a school...

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Ok, I'm not entirely sure where this post would be most appropriate... but it seemed like a knife defense kind of thing...

I overheard local news talking about a high school kid (or was he middle school? i forget) walking into a school police officer's office area and just stabbing him with a knife.

Stupid. The kid had issues I'm sure... but that's not the reason for this post...

Instead of employing any kind of knife defense disarm and restraining the troubled kid... he pulled out his gun and shot him. Notice I said "had issues" in the earlier sentence. Mhm... "He's dead, Jim."

I understand that if someone is coming at you to cut/stab the odds are pretty high that you're gonna be cut/stabbed before you even realize there's a knife. Panic, ok... I understand that... But it just seems that police officers could use some serious regular training and not just police academy. I wonder how often most cops do any kind of training for things like that. Every time one of my area instructors has offered seminars for local police no one ever shows up. It's like they think they know it all, or their gun is the only answer they'll ever need, or is it just the mentality of the police in my area, or... I don't know... I'm no cop, maybe I should be.

My point here being a life could have been saved, thrown in a correctional facility and maybe had a chance to do something with their life. Yeah, maybe a longshot, but still...

Any thoughts?
 

KenpoTex

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You're bringing up two different issues:
1. Cops don't train as much as they should.
2. Was the officer's response appropriate?

The first topic (cops and extra training) has been covered extensively...do a search.

As to the second issue:
If the facts are as you stated (student attack police officer with knife, officer shoots student) then I think the situation ended exactly as it should. A knife attack is a deadly force situation. Attempting to respond with anything less than deadly force is foolish and only serves to heighten the risk. What if the officer had tried to "disarm and restrain" the student and was unsuccessful? If the student took out the officer (even if by luck alone), who would have stopped him from attacking and possibly killing others?

All I can really say without more info...got a link to the story?
 

Bill Mattocks

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Thanks! Based on that limited information, we don't know much about what happened yet.

However, in general, I would say that as a private citizen, no matter how much MA training and ability I had, if someone stabbed me with a knife and they still had the means to keep stabbing me, and I had a gun, I would not hesitate to shoot the person stabbing me.

Every situation is different, and we really do not know what the officer might or might not have been able to do instead of employing his sidearm.
 

Archangel M

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This one rates right up there with "why didnt he just shoot him in the leg or something".
 

Bill Mattocks

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This one rates right up there with "why didnt he just shoot him in the leg or something".

Yeah, I actually heard that again recently (about a different incident). A person of above-average intelligence actually asked me why cops didn't shoot guns out of people's hands. I'm sure Ed Topperwein could have done it, but I doubt anyone else can, especially while being bum-rushed and punched & kicked & bit, in the dark, at close range, etc, etc.
 

shesulsa

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Man, I was *just* having this conversation with an old high school buddy!

Knife attacks are often under-appreciated. The knife is teh d34dly and very personal. You don't "accidentally" stab someone 37 times, ya know what I'm saying?

Let me ask the OP - Allen a.k.a. Destroyer - what do you think was the motive behind the stabbing? What do you think the person with the knife was trying to do to the officer, exactly?

Tickle him?
Nick him so he needed a band-aid?
Help him shave?

I seriously doubt his motives were anything but killing him or at the very least, doing him serious and possibly permanent harm. Perhaps his motive was to get the officer's gun and pull a Columbine.

This, friend, is why we train ... is it not? And it is why the police (and others) carry firearms. If the student initiated the attack then the officer was definitely within most policies to use the sidearm. In some locations, you don't have to wait for the attack - if the suspect *draws* a knife you can fire, but I'm fairly certain that varies from city to city, city to county to state, etcetera.

It is sad someone had to die - I won't be cavalier - but this sounds (right now and without all the facts, of course) justified.
 

Archangel M

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I'd have shot him if he even displayed a knife and was advancing on me...screw trying to disarm him. Anybody who proposes knife disarms as anything except a last ditch, do or die, proposition knows little about the realities of self-defense.
 

jks9199

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Ok, I'm not entirely sure where this post would be most appropriate... but it seemed like a knife defense kind of thing...

I overheard local news talking about a high school kid (or was he middle school? i forget) walking into a school police officer's office area and just stabbing him with a knife.

Stupid. The kid had issues I'm sure... but that's not the reason for this post...

Instead of employing any kind of knife defense disarm and restraining the troubled kid... he pulled out his gun and shot him. Notice I said "had issues" in the earlier sentence. Mhm... "He's dead, Jim."

I understand that if someone is coming at you to cut/stab the odds are pretty high that you're gonna be cut/stabbed before you even realize there's a knife. Panic, ok... I understand that... But it just seems that police officers could use some serious regular training and not just police academy. I wonder how often most cops do any kind of training for things like that. Every time one of my area instructors has offered seminars for local police no one ever shows up. It's like they think they know it all, or their gun is the only answer they'll ever need, or is it just the mentality of the police in my area, or... I don't know... I'm no cop, maybe I should be.

My point here being a life could have been saved, thrown in a correctional facility and maybe had a chance to do something with their life. Yeah, maybe a longshot, but still...

Any thoughts?
This was a classic knife attack. No warning, just stab, and you're bleeding. You don't know how badly you're hurt, you don't know who else he's going to stab. The cop did exactly the right thing; he utilized lethal force in response to lethal force used against him, and which was still able to be used against others.

I guarantee the cop didn't go to work that morning saying "I wanna shoot a kid today!" I guarantee he's not thrilled or happy that he killed someone -- but he may well be thrilled that he's alive and returning home to his family.
 
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Maybe I asked that simply because I don't go around carrying a gun. That's a mindset I'm not familiar with (see also: yet). But that's why I posted here, to see what the experts had to say.

You're all right... I just didn't think about it like that.

Thanks, I'll do a search and see what else I can find on police and their training (sorry, just joined the forum).
 

Brian R. VanCise

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From the information we have it would appear that the officer responded appropriately. Lethal force was brought to bear by the knife wielding attacker and the officer responded in kind to save his life. I am sure that everyone involved is upset about the situation as well because it is tragic and yet from all accounts to this point the officer acted appropriately.
 

lklawson

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Any thoughts?
Yes.

Knives are freaking DANGEROUS and I completely support the LEO's decision. There are just so blasted many places on the human body where you can bleed a man out in bare minutes.

You don't screw around with a knife. Light him up. Slap leather and get busy.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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Yeah, I actually heard that again recently (about a different incident). A person of above-average intelligence actually asked me why cops didn't shoot guns out of people's hands.
Oh for crying out loud.

Sure, I'll say try "shooting the gun out of his hand" as soon as the start issuing .45 LC rounds made of silver and a fiery steed of the same name. :p

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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What do you think the person with the knife was trying to do to the officer, exactly?

Tickle him?
"You might tickle a fellow's ribs a long time with
this instrument, Colonel, before you'd make him
laugh,"​
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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Maybe I asked that simply because I don't go around carrying a gun. That's a mindset I'm not familiar with (see also: yet).
It's the same mind set as studying martial arts for self defense instead of "self improvement."

It's like Insurance. You really REALLY hope you don't have to use it. Ever. But just in case your house catches on fire or your car slides off the road, you've got that insurance.

A big difference is that there's a lot more training required to use this kind of insurance responsibly. Recognizing when you are being threatened with Deadly Force is one of those training requirements.

See section 10, "Deadly Force and the Force Continuum" of the Newbie's Guide to Self Defense:

http://lklawson.isa-geek.org/sync/Martial_Arts/Newbies_Guide_to_Self_Defense_1-0.txt

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

punisher73

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Thought I would post this, since it shows REAL knife attacks caught on tape, some of them involving LEO's.


Watch all the videos and you will see, that in close range and with a knife you are at a disadvantage even if you do have a firearm. Think about it...You have a crazy person with a knife and you shoot them right in center mass and take out their heart, how long before they know their dead? How long can you keep going? Even 3-5 seconds is a LONG time for someone to keep attacking you with a knife.

Also, watch the videos and think to yourself...Would those disarms they taught me REALLY work against someone like that? Would I want to be that close to try? What happens when I'm that close and it doesn't work?
 
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INDYFIGHTER

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The LEO was in the right. Had he hesitated he could have been killed and then the wacko kid would have had access to his firearm putting everyone in that school in danger. He did his job.
 

sgtmac_46

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Ok, I'm not entirely sure where this post would be most appropriate... but it seemed like a knife defense kind of thing...

I overheard local news talking about a high school kid (or was he middle school? i forget) walking into a school police officer's office area and just stabbing him with a knife.

Stupid. The kid had issues I'm sure... but that's not the reason for this post...

Instead of employing any kind of knife defense disarm and restraining the troubled kid... he pulled out his gun and shot him. Notice I said "had issues" in the earlier sentence. Mhm... "He's dead, Jim."

I understand that if someone is coming at you to cut/stab the odds are pretty high that you're gonna be cut/stabbed before you even realize there's a knife. Panic, ok... I understand that... But it just seems that police officers could use some serious regular training and not just police academy. I wonder how often most cops do any kind of training for things like that. Every time one of my area instructors has offered seminars for local police no one ever shows up. It's like they think they know it all, or their gun is the only answer they'll ever need, or is it just the mentality of the police in my area, or... I don't know... I'm no cop, maybe I should be.

My point here being a life could have been saved, thrown in a correctional facility and maybe had a chance to do something with their life. Yeah, maybe a longshot, but still...

Any thoughts?

A knife is lethal force........period. The appropriate response to lethal force is not slap and tickle.
 

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