Observation

[Headhunter]

Last night I was training with a group of people and doing techniques and the thing with kenpo is a lot of the criticism is the whole the attacker wouldn't just stand still while you hit them. Sure fair enough but last night I did a techique and messed the timing up and accidentally clipped my partner on the nose. It was a total accident and there was barely any power in it but the guy who is very experienced and tough literally just froze his head just went down and he held his nose. If it had been a real fight I could've done anything I wanted he wasn't out of it it was just shock and that was from a maybe 10% clip on the nose. So imagine what a 100% shot would've done. So yeah no one will just stand there and let you throw all your strikes but in kenpo you land that one good shot straight away then that can stop them doing anything not always but it absolutely can do.

Now to add I'm not bragging about hitting the guy it was a total accident and I must've apologised like 10 times I felt awful about it but it was only later on thinking about it that it came into my head.

 

[kuniggety]

In a real fight, there would be adrenaline and a 10% power hit isn't going to take anyone down. That aside, this is why sparring (with at least light contact) is important for any martial art otherwise you might as well be practicing your forms in the air with no partner. You're learning application which involves a resisting opponent.

When you're not expecting it, blows can really do a doozy on you. I've been accidentally knee'd in the temple while doing BJJ and it was so hard I saw a flash and my head hurt for about two days. I know they didn't do it on purpose... they were just jumping around my guard. **** happens.

 

[drop bear]

That is why you assume the attacker won't stand still while you hit him. Because while you are teeing off on him. He can get that fight ending shot away.

 

[Spinedoc]

Accidents happen. Not long ago, in Aikido, we were practicing direct entry iriminage from chudan tsuki, and as I was with one of the other advanced students we were going fast....very fast. All of sudden he tsuki'd, and I went to the technique, and he brushed at my elbow which caused it to collapse, but I was moving too fast to stop....my elbow caught him in the nose HARD...started bleeding immediately. It went from an iriminage to a muy thai styled elbow strike in the blink of an eye.....I've been punched hard, kicked, thrown wrong...you name it.

 

[Buka]

It happens. But, when you get accidentally tagged in training, you cannot react all all, not even a little. To stop, grab your nose, turn away bend over, call time, whatever - you are practicing the art of defeating yourself, practicing caving in.

This even includes kids (I'm not talking about a kid getting 'injured", just getting tagged). Even if his nose is bleeding, you point out to him that it's the right color, that if it starts bleeding green, call me right away.(They're told this way before hand) Kids pick up on this and actually love it. And kids get bloody noses growing up, they know what's up.

Should never let yourself do that "stop, I accidentally got hit by you" thing. Ever.

 

[Headhunter]

It happens. But, when you get accidentally tagged in training, you cannot react all all, not even a little. To stop, grab your nose, turn away bend over, call time, whatever - you are practicing the art of defeating yourself, practicing caving in.

This even includes kids (I'm not talking about a kid getting 'injured", just getting tagged). Even if his nose is bleeding, you point out to him that it's the right color, that if it starts bleeding green, call me right away.(They're told this way before hand) Kids pick up on this and actually love it. And kids get bloody noses growing up, they know what's up.

Should never let yourself do that "stop, I accidentally got hit by you" thing. Ever.

Don't agree at all. If someone gets hit especially with a head shot you stop it could be conscious or it could be a broken nose and if you get repeated hits it's dangerous. It's a martial arts class not military. People have jobs to go to the next day they can't afford to be going around with broken noses or black eyes or concussions

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Last night I was training with a group of people and doing techniques and the thing with kenpo is a lot of the criticism is the whole the attacker wouldn't just stand still while you hit them. Sure fair enough but last night I did a techique and messed the timing up and accidentally clipped my partner on the nose. It was a total accident and there was barely any power in it but the guy who is very experienced and tough literally just froze his head just went down and he held his nose. If it had been a real fight I could've done anything I wanted he wasn't out of it it was just shock and that was from a maybe 10% clip on the nose. So imagine what a 100% shot would've done. So yeah no one will just stand there and let you throw all your strikes but in kenpo you land that one good shot straight away then that can stop them doing anything not always but it absolutely can do.

Now to add I'm not bragging about hitting the guy it was a total accident and I must've apologised like 10 times I felt awful about it but it was only later on thinking about it that it came into my head.

The problem is, that's not the reaction of an experienced fighter. It's definitely not the reaction of an experienced fighter who has his adrenaline already going. That's the reaction of someone who isn't used to getting hit and/or isn't expecting to be in a fight. If you are using your art in self defense, it's not a safe expectation that either of those things will apply to your attacker.

If you're training and you take a shot which necessitates a break for safety purposes - to stop bleeding, check for possible concussion, etc - then you should stay calm, with your guard up and maintaining awareness of your training partner, step back and disengage in a safe manner, and explain that you need to take a break. You don't ever want to freeze up or react in a way that would get you hurt worse in a real fight.

 

[Transk53]

The problem is, that's not the reaction of an experienced fighter. It's definitely not the reaction of an experienced fighter who has his adrenaline already going. That's the reaction of someone who isn't used to getting hit and/or isn't expecting to be in a fight. If you are using your art in self defense, it's not a safe expectation that either of those things will apply to your attacker.

If you're training and you take a shot which necessitates a break for safety purposes - to stop bleeding, check for possible concussion, etc - then you should stay calm, with your guard up and maintaining awareness of your training partner, step back and disengage in a safe manner, and explain that you need to take a break. You don't ever want to freeze up or react in a way that would get you hurt worse in a real fight.

Not sure Headhunter knows what this means.

 

[hoshin1600]

It happens. But, when you get accidentally tagged in training, you cannot react all all, not even a little. To stop, grab your nose, turn away bend over, call time, whatever - you are practicing the art of defeating yourself, practicing caving in.

This even includes kids (I'm not talking about a kid getting 'injured", just getting tagged). Even if his nose is bleeding, you point out to him that it's the right color, that if it starts bleeding green, call me right away.(They're told this way before hand) Kids pick up on this and actually love it. And kids get bloody noses growing up, they know what's up.

Should never let yourself do that "stop, I accidentally got hit by you" thing. Ever.

I used to tell the kids in dramatic fashion that you never just stop like that. i would go into a story about how if you were doing a sword kata and cut your finger off, finish the kata then after your done pick it up and I'll sew it back on with some dental floss.

Protect you self at all times. Dropping to your knees opens you up for more damage if your partner didn't see that your hurt.
Not to mention that turning your focus inward to your injury is a very bad mind set that will happen in real life as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Last night I was training with a group of people and doing techniques and the thing with kenpo is a lot of the criticism is the whole the attacker wouldn't just stand still while you hit them. Sure fair enough but last night I did a techique and messed the timing up and accidentally clipped my partner on the nose. It was a total accident and there was barely any power in it but the guy who is very experienced and tough literally just froze his head just went down and he held his nose. If it had been a real fight I could've done anything I wanted he wasn't out of it it was just shock and that was from a maybe 10% clip on the nose. So imagine what a 100% shot would've done. So yeah no one will just stand there and let you throw all your strikes but in kenpo you land that one good shot straight away then that can stop them doing anything not always but it absolutely can do.

Now to add I'm not bragging about hitting the guy it was a total accident and I must've apologised like 10 times I felt awful about it but it was only later on thinking about it that it came into my head.

This is an argument we get sometimes in NGA, as well. We do practice some of our movements as one-step attacks (the attacker gives one attack, then doesn't follow up). It's a training tool that allows the student to practice movements and ingrain them. The danger is if you never do the same work with resistance, you don't learn to pivot to something else when the situation changes. The idea in NGA is that when the "feel" isn't the same as a non-resisting attacker, then you change your approach (for my students, the change is most commonly to "beat them until you can do a technique"). Sometimes they won't resist (because you put them in the right situation where there's no resistance). Sometimes they will. Just make sure your training is preparing you for both.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It happens. But, when you get accidentally tagged in training, you cannot react all all, not even a little. To stop, grab your nose, turn away bend over, call time, whatever - you are practicing the art of defeating yourself, practicing caving in.

This even includes kids (I'm not talking about a kid getting 'injured", just getting tagged). Even if his nose is bleeding, you point out to him that it's the right color, that if it starts bleeding green, call me right away.(They're told this way before hand) Kids pick up on this and actually love it. And kids get bloody noses growing up, they know what's up.

Should never let yourself do that "stop, I accidentally got hit by you" thing. Ever.

One of the things I keep drumming into my students is, "If you run into something that goes wrong, keep hitting." I shudder when a student gets something "wrong" (outside some very specific drills) and stops to correct it. Bad habit to get into, even if what you got "wrong" means you got hit. Keep going, and teach your body that this stuff isn't a big deal.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Don't agree at all. If someone gets hit especially with a head shot you stop it could be conscious or it could be a broken nose and if you get repeated hits it's dangerous. It's a martial arts class not military. People have jobs to go to the next day they can't afford to be going around with broken noses or black eyes or concussions

For self-defense training, they should give an immediate response before stopping. If it's a head shot, we want to stop after that immediate response. If it's not (and it's not a significant injury), there's rarely a reason to stop. I'll make exceptions (for obvious reasons) when someone loses a contact lens or their glasses, but I wish I didn't need to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem is, that's not the reaction of an experienced fighter. It's definitely not the reaction of an experienced fighter who has his adrenaline already going. That's the reaction of someone who isn't used to getting hit and/or isn't expecting to be in a fight. If you are using your art in self defense, it's not a safe expectation that either of those things will apply to your attacker.

If you're training and you take a shot which necessitates a break for safety purposes - to stop bleeding, check for possible concussion, etc - then you should stay calm, with your guard up and maintaining awareness of your training partner, step back and disengage in a safe manner, and explain that you need to take a break. You don't ever want to freeze up or react in a way that would get you hurt worse in a real fight.

This is a good approach. I want students to make a next action (putting up a guard and backing away counts), rather than simply stopping in place.

 

[jks9199]

A couple things...

First, on "posing"... Depending on the exercise, one student feeds an attack and simply receives the response. They don't counter, they don't "react" to being hit... they're a slightly animated dummy. This is the START of working with the technique. As the students develop proficiency and familiarity with the technique being practiced, they should stop being such a passive recipient of the technique; they may change the feed, they may take advantage of openings in the defender's movement to counter, whatever... it becomes a lot more lively.

Second, on training "accidents." They happen. People zig when they should zag, moving bodies try to occupy the same space... Things happen. The response of the one who made the oops should be a quick acknowledgment, acceptance, and single apology. Not 20 profuse apologies. Once is enough -- but acceptance of responsibility is required, and a quick check that they're OK. "My bad." Either partner can be at fault... I might feed an attack too fast and hit someone -- or my partner might nail me in the nose. Training contains a risk of injury; because of that, we must insist that those we train with accept responsibility for what may happen in training.

Third... Practicing being dead. Yeah -- that one comes naturally, we really don't need to practice. So when you screw up, don't freeze. Roll through to the end of the exercise/stage, then deal with it. So -- I'm training with Fred. The exercise is for Fred to step, block, and counter attack... but I come at him full speed, and bust him in the nose. He finishes the technique, goes to a safe point afterwards then I apologize for coming at him too fast. "My bad, you OK?"

Note that this doesn't mitigate the need to be alert for injuries and for providing appropriate treatment.

 

[Danny T]

People are in the martial arts for many different reasons.
'If' one is training for physical protection or to be able to fight then learning to get hit and eventually accepting the hits is a very important aspect of the training.
Accepting the hits isn't just a saying you know or realize you'll get hit. Accepting is actually getting hit and continuing as though it didn't happen. Getting hit at 10% is a tap and should not have cause any real injury.

If one is only learning the martial arts for fun, fitness, confidence development then getting hit may not be so high on the list and that persons ability to fight or physically defend themselves would be very high either.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You can stop a person without a full power hit. In fact, good techniques are better than trying to put extra juice on a strike because it's for real.

On the other hand, you cannot count on pain to be a stopping force or motivator in all cases. Works for some, not for others, you never know which kind you're going to get.

 

[Buka]

Don't agree at all. If someone gets hit especially with a head shot you stop it could be conscious or it could be a broken nose and if you get repeated hits it's dangerous. It's a martial arts class not military. People have jobs to go to the next day they can't afford to be going around with broken noses or black eyes or concussions

I'm not talking about getting injured, of course you stop in that case, I'm talking about getting whacked.

 

[Buka]

Another thing - when you get whacked accidentally, be it a knee to the head, a poke in the eye, an elbow that wasn't supposed to be an elbow, and it really, really hurts - it's only going to hurt more if you stop and focus on it. It makes it harder for you. And you stopped. (again, I'm not talking about an injury, I'm talking about getting whacked) When you stopped, you just had your body practice a scenario it really shouldn't ever do. It gives the body another option. You might argue, "But that's only when there's a mess up, an accident!"
Yes, exactly, of you getting hit by surprise (the accident) Getting hit by surprise, too hard, by accident during training - is remarkably similar to getting hit by surprise in real life.

I'm telling ya, stay away from this. It tends to repeat.

 

[KangTsai]

It just shows he had no caution. I've taken a few 100℅ left hooks accidentally. Those were brushed off with "sorry," followed by "i's okay." If some roughness is expected and agreed upon by both parties, this kind of stuff doesn't happen.

 

[JP3]

Should never let yourself do that "stop, I accidentally got hit by you" thing. Ever.

Completely agree with Buka and others on this point. To do otherwise is to build in a very false sense of security into oneself about the efficacy of one's own SD abilities. Headhunter made this point, albeit unknowingly, in the O/P above.

I'll take it one step further if I may.

When in practice... Do. Not. Stop. Until. Technique. Complete. I'd add a line of exclamation points and mean-faced emoji to get this across. In teaching, it is my one pet peeve for students on the mat, the only thing I could potentially get unglued about, other than someone hurting someone else just because they can.

If you are in the middle of a technique, good, bad, ugly or indifferent, finish the technique. Use common sense for safety, of course, but I've seen people surprised about how "they can't feel anything" when they are literally doing the skill almost exactly correct, they stop, and unknowingly put themselves right back in the or a vulnerable position.

You get popped in training or practice. It happens. Even with flowing, soft-touch arts, as with SpineDoc's story above, if there is kinetic energy involved, there is a serious possibility of someone receiving that kenitic energy and it's being converted into... something else.

But, if you stop every time something like that happens, you'll stop, as in Headhunter's story, when you are actually hit/grabbed for real the one time in your life. You'll need it, but you won't e able to access the skill, because you've intentionally installed a short-circuit cut-off switch in front of the skillset.

I've been on the bad end of one of those flowy iriminage turned Muay Thai elbow strikes to the forehead myself. It was not fun. The other guy stopped and I dropped center and buried him with a uranage. We were in randori, which I take seriously, I tell people that I take it seriously, and I do not stop until someone has "ended the contest." Ending the contest "can" be ith simply gaining a dominant position which will tak too much time to work through to get out of for the practice we'r involved in that day, or it could be a submission lock/hold, or someone could have just gotten tossed hard enough that they're done for a minute while they gather themselves... or it might be because you got popped. It is all training, and while you have to have some common sense working along with it, if you stop at every single little thing, what are you going to do when a bad guy is swinging a pipe and you step in a hole and twist an ankle? Stop please, I've turned my ankle?" I doubt that will avail you in the situation.