Understanding styles

[AceHBK]

I see that with CMA's there are so many different types.
With Shaolin are there different systems in it or is it it's own along with everything else named like Hung Gar, Choy Li Fat, 7*, etc?

I have someone who learned northern and southern shaolin teaching privately now. Should I ask which specific style it is being that shaolin may be too broad? Or is that just it. Should it be catagorized even more?
I see many of you all listing different types and it wasnt till I came on this board that I found out that CMA's had sooo many different types. Do they all fall under Kung Fu or Shaolin? What more to it is there?
I am trying to be more knowledgable so thank you in advance.

How many different styles are there then and what are the characterics of them? I know that may be a lot so if someone knows of a webpage listing them and a description or know the link to a thread with this I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

List of Chinese Martial Arts
http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-chinese-martial-arts?method=22

Shaolin
http://www.answers.com/topic/shaolin-martial-arts?method=22


This is a very big question and very broad question

There are northern and southern styles and there are internal/soft styles and external/hard styles and there are soft/hard styles.

A definitive southern style would be Wing Chun were I believe Bagua and Xingyi are Northern. However there are things like Northern Preying mantis and Southern Preying mantis as well

Shaolin, Wing Chun, Hung gar, Crane, Dragon, Tiger, Eagle, Chang Chaun, Mantis, White Eyebrow, Monkey, and Choy-Li-Fut (to name a few) being hard styles

Tai Chi Chuan, Baguazhang and possibly Liu he Ba Fa being soft

Xingyiquan being hard/soft

However hard and soft is more of a reference to how Qi is manifested than anything else. Hard/external styles come from (outside in), build up Qi in the limbs and bring it to center. Soft/internal styles (inside out) build up Qi in the center and send it to the limbs.

Many of the hard forms came from Shaolin, but there are distinct Shaolin forms. Many of the Shaolin forms are animal forms, but there is also Shaolin Long Fist.

And there is a form that is basically Chinese wrestling called Shuai jiao.

And then almost all CMA forms have within them Qin Na, muscle and tendon tearing and joint locking. But there are also people that specialize in just Qin Na.

Also there are different styles of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Tai Chi, White Crane, Manits, etc.

And then there is San Da/San Shou - newer style, Hard style, and not unlike other styles, has some Bagua and Xingyi in it as well as other things from other styles.

This is just to name a few.

 

[AceHBK]

List of Chinese Martial Arts
http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-chinese-martial-arts?method=22

Shaolin
http://www.answers.com/topic/shaolin-martial-arts?method=22


This is a very big question and very broad question

There are northern and southern styles and there are internal/soft styles and external/hard styles and there are soft/hard styles.

A definitive southern style would be Wing Chun were I believe Bagua and Xingyi are Northern. However there are things like Northern Preying mantis and Southern Preying mantis as well

Shaolin, Wing Chun, Hung gar, Crane, Dragon, Tiger, Eagle, Chang Chaun, Mantis, White Eyebrow, Monkey, and Choy-Li-Fut (to name a few) being hard styles

Tai Chi Chuan, Baguazhang and possibly Liu he Ba Fa being soft

Xingyiquan being hard/soft

However hard and soft is more of a reference to how Qi is manifested than anything else. Hard/external styles come from (outside in), build up Qi in the limbs and bring it to center. Soft/internal styles (inside out) build up Qi in the center and send it to the limbs.

Many of the hard forms came from Shaolin, but there are distinct Shaolin forms. Many of the Shaolin forms are animal forms, but there is also Shaolin Long Fist.

And there is a form that is basically Chinese wrestling called Shuai jiao.

And then almost all CMA forms have within them Qin Na, muscle and tendon tearing and joint locking. But there are also people that specialize in just Qin Na.

Also there are different styles of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Tai Chi, White Crane, Manits, etc.

And then there is San Da/San Shou - newer style, Hard style, and not unlike other styles, has some Bagua and Xingyi in it as well as other things from other styles.

This is just to name a few.

WOW!! Thank you so much for the information!

Now what is the deifference between hard/soft styles? Does it represent how forceful or soft the style looks?

With sooo mant different CMS styles but all coming from one place (meaning china) can they really be all distinctively different?Wont many look like each other?

 

[Xue Sheng]

WOW!! Thank you so much for the information!

Now what is the deifference between hard/soft styles? Does it represent how forceful or soft the style looks?

With sooo mant different CMS styles but all coming from one place (meaning china) can they really be all distinctively different?Wont many look like each other?

Hard styles are also called external styles; soft styles are also called internal styles. And there are other differences between them but the main difference is how they manifest power/energy aka Qi.

External styles tend to build Qi in the limbs, arms and legs (this is an extreme over simplifications - basically focus is there) and then use it for martial purposes. They also develop Qi in the arms and legs and bring it in to center, the Dan tian. This is considered an easier root and you are generally able to develop martial skill quicker (when I say quicker I am still talking a year or more). But mastery takes much much longer.

Internal styles tend to build Qi in the center and send it to the limbs. This is considered harder to do and if can take longer to develop martial skill in a soft style. Xingyi although very powerful takes on average 5 years to understand for martial use, if you are truly following the internal root.

(These numbers are not set in stone by the way; they are averages some take less time some take more)

Does it represent how forceful or soft a style looks? Good question, best answer, yes and no. Tai Chi can look very soft until you see the fast form. Xingyi can look very hard, but it is a soft/hard style. Bagua can look hard and soft it is a soft style and if you watch Wing Chun Chi Sau it can appear soft, but Wing Chun is a decidedly hard style. Monkey styles…well you would have to see it, suffice to say it is a hard style. It is mainly the differences in the way they use energy.

However it is also said that hard goes to soft and soft goes to hard. Basically the belief was that you cannot practice hard styles for your entire life without possibly causing damage and therefore they start working on the internal as they progress and get older.

Soft goes to hard. Once you develop internal Qi and make it use full you can easily develop external to use as well. Also it has been said you can practice soft style well into old age. Example the 80 year old Tai Chi master, I once saw a 90 year old Tai Chi guy and an 86 year old tai chi guy doing push hands that put me to shame 10 years ago.

As for what I believe, they are both difficult and take a lot of training.

As for similarities, yup there are lots. There are many styles of CMA that share animal forms. But there are also big differences. Xingyiquan is soft/hard and is very powerful in attack and tends towards the linear. Baguazshang is soft and also powerful but circular.

I have seen Southern mantis and although it is similar to what I have seen in Northern mantis, they have differences too. Southern tends to have a higher stance and Northern tends to be lower for one. And as a side note, if a Southern mantis stylist gets knocked to the ground, do yourself a favor and stand back and let him get up, the kicks and punches that come from them on the ground are a real pain, literally.

Wing Chun is Southern and very different form other CMAs such as Eagle claw, Shaolin, Dragon, or Xingyi, to name a few. And although there are animal forms in styles Xingyi 12 animal, San Da, Tai Chi and other CMAs. They are not the same as a form that is entirely an animal style. Tai Chi for example has cranes beak and white crane spreads its wings. This is very different from Crane style Kung Fu.

San Da/San Shou has Xingyi and Bagua in it, it is considered a hard style and it does over all look distinctively different than Xingyi and Bagua.

But you also have differences in strategies between systems as well that also make one distinctive from another, even if they look similar in some areas. White crane attack and defense strategies can be different from Tiger and both can be very different from Tai Chi, actually attack and Tai Chi do not go together. Tai Chi does not initiate or attack. Where Shaolin may meet force with force Tai Chi and bagua can absorbed and redirect that force.

You can see Yang Style Tai Chi and compare it to Chen Style Tai chi and see major differences and similarities.

As I said you asked a big question and I Know there are many others on MAT that can give you more insight than I, particularly in individual CMA styles.

I do mainly internal styles; I have dabbled in external and recently started training an external. But that does not mean I know jack about how Hung Gar of Wing Chun, etc. really work. I can at best give you an over view.

 

[AceHBK]

you have done a great job and I GREATLY appreciate it.
I was totally lost and now see I didnt know anything but U have given me a lot of knowledge. Thank you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Happy to help.

 

[pete]

Hard styles are also called external styles; soft styles are also called internal styles.

this is a common misconception... hard and soft should not be confused with internal and external. xingyi is an internal hard style. xingyi is about power, subtle power. there is nothing subtle about xingyi (b.k.frantzis)
tai chi is balance, hard and soft. bagua is about change hard to soft, soft to hard. tai chi, bagua, and xingyi are all trained as internal arts.
pete

 

[Xue Sheng]

this is a common misconception... hard and soft should not be confused with internal and external. xingyi is an internal hard style. xingyi is about power, subtle power. there is nothing subtle about xingyi (b.k.frantzis)
tai chi is balance, hard and soft. bagua is about change hard to soft, soft to hard. tai chi, bagua, and xingyi are all trained as internal arts.
pete

I do not believe it is a misconception, but I am willing to check into it further.

I did not come across any description other than hard/soft for Xingyi when I first trained it and my current teacher refers to it as the same. As does, I believe my San Da teacher, but I will have to ask him to be certain. Also in research I found the same, but I will check further.

Actually my understanding is Xingyi is soft/hard - Internal

Tai Chi is as far as I know soft.

Bagua, you got me there, I trained bagua briefly, and I can only say for sure it is circular and internal.

My Tai chi teachers have all referred to Tai Chi as a soft/internal style.

And they are all internal.

Many years ago one style Bagua use to have an external hard form that was taught to advanced students. I do not know if that exist in any bagua style today.

 

[7starmantis]

Its the age old question, no one can agree on a common deffinition for "soft" or "hard". Each word carries its own connotations for each person and they may or may not want to refer to their beloved system with a word that holds a bad connotation for them.

7sm

 

[Xue Sheng]

Pete

I just reread my previous post and I may be coming off as argumentative and that is not what I was going for, sorry.

Let me say, I could be wrong and I am going to look into it further.

I have heard Yang Jwing Ming refer to Xingyi as soft/hard.

As for my current Xingyi teacher, I am in error, I never heard him say it was soft/hard. He did say he liked the way it brought together his soft style and hard style that he had learned. I see him Wednesday adn I will ask.

I also just went back through some of my books and I found a great description of Internal/External from Chen Zhenglei. I will post it when I have more time; I am rather pressed right now.

As for Tai Chi being a soft style, I still maintain that it is. My sifu has referred to it as such as has Dr Yang and so does Tim Cartmell on his sight.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK, it's me again and I am hopefully done after this, I'm tired of reading and I am REALLY tired of typing.

After some reading this is what I have, apologize for the length and lecture-esq. post, believe me I have shortened it considerably.

First When I an talking soft I am not saying like a pillow and when I am talking of Hard martial arts I am not saying like a stone or difficult. I am basing it on; Nei Dan – Internal Qi training and Wai Dan – External training

External or internal schools of Chinese martial arts.

“External martial arts put more emphasis of striking with fists and kicking with feet, vigorous jumping and leaping, rapid shifting from side to side, with its attack and defending maneuvers easy to distinguish, With one look you can tell it is a martial art.

Chen style Tai Chi has special characteristics: it uses thought to guide the energy and uses energy to guide the body. If the internal energy it still, then the body doesn’t move and it is still. The internal energy just has to move, and the body follows the internal energy in moving. It uses internal energy to drive the movement of the external form, with upper and lower parts of the body leading and following each other, continuously without stopping….”

(Chen Zhenglei – Chen Style Taijiquan, Sword and Broadsword – page 14)

In Yang Jwing Ming’s book Taijiquan Classic Yang Style starting on page 19 he discusses hard styles, Soft-Hard Styles, and Soft Styles. All that follows, except for what is in parenthesis about Xingyi comes from this book. I did not type the entire section it covered 2 pages.

He state that these are categories based on the way a martial art manifest Jin (martial power).

Generally speaking hard styles use more muscular power. The Qi is led to the muscles or generated in the local area; the muscles are then tensed up to trap the Qi there in order to energize muscle power to its maximum efficiency. Hard Jin is easy for a beginner to manifest. A typical hard style is Tiger Claw.

Soft-Hard style, in these styles the muscle and tendons remain relaxed and the movements are soft in order to allow the Qi to move freely from the lower dan tian to the limbs. Just before the attack reaches the opponents body suddenly the muscles and tendons are tensed. This kind of power is first soft and then hard. Typical soft styles are White Crane and Snake. (On the accompanying DVD for the book he includes Xingyi as well)

Soft styles muscles and tendons remain as relaxed as possible in order to allow as much Qi as possible to circulate from the lower Dan Tian. However right before contact with the opponent’s body the physical body remains relaxed. Typical soft styles are Taijiquan and Lie He Ba Fa.

 

[pete]

Xue Sheng, no need to apologize, i do not read anything argumentative or disrespectful in your post. you have every right to question or disagree with me or any other poster...

soft and soft are 'subjective' terms as they relate to martial arts. in terms of tai chi, however, they can be seen as complimentary opposites, or yin and yang. look at the symbol called tai chi, you will see equal amounts of each, and a little bit of one within the other (represented by the dots).

the martial art of tai chi chuan is a 'complete' martial art, by dr yang's description (since you brought him into the discussion and i respect his teachings also). this means it contains 4 elements: striking, kicking, wrestling, and chin na. the reason for all 4 is that none is invincible and each can overtake or likewise be overtaken by one of the other skills... wrestling overcomes kicking and striking, chin na beats wrestling, and striking/kicking can overtake chin na.

kicking and striking can only be effective if they are 'hard' and since they are contained within the fighting strategies of tai chi, then tai chi must contain a hard element in addition to soft.

pete.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng, no need to apologize, i do not read anything argumentative or disrespectful in your post. you have every right to question or disagree with me or any other poster...

soft and soft are 'subjective' terms as they relate to martial arts. in terms of tai chi, however, they can be seen as complimentary opposites, or yin and yang. look at the symbol called tai chi, you will see equal amounts of each, and a little bit of one within the other (represented by the dots).

the martial art of tai chi chuan is a 'complete' martial art, by dr yang's description (since you brought him into the discussion and i respect his teachings also). this means it contains 4 elements: striking, kicking, wrestling, and chin na. the reason for all 4 is that none is invincible and each can overtake or likewise be overtaken by one of the other skills... wrestling overcomes kicking and striking, chin na beats wrestling, and striking/kicking can overtake chin na.

kicking and striking can only be effective if they are 'hard' and since they are contained within the fighting strategies of tai chi, then tai chi must contain a hard element in addition to soft.

pete.

You are correct a kick and a punch can be considered hard that is true, (I will use a kick here) but what is making it soft by the description I have come to understand is that unlike Wing Chun where you use tense muscular power to deliver the kick in Tai Chi you remain relaxed (muscles and tendons) throughout the entire execution of that kick, including contact with your opponent. It is thinking about moving the Qi or energy from the dan tian to the foot that makes the kick occur. I have been told this by my Sifu and it is discussed a great length by Dr Yang, as my previous overly long post discusses, much more briefly than he does by the way. I studied only briefly with him, but I am seriously considering returning. I like the Yang Bin Hao style.

As for Xingyi what is making it hard/soft is the relaxation of the body prior to attack and the tensing at the instant of attack. The entire 5-element form is supposed to be relaxed, unless you hit something. That is one of the reasons you do so much standing training and San ti training, to learn how to remain relaxed.

I had to go back and read a bit to remember what I had forgotten and learn some too. I also learned that Whit crane is considered hard/soft, that I did not know.

Bagua, I still understand as a soft style, but my training there is considerably less than Tai Chi and Xingyi so without reading a lot about Bagua, and I am all read out, I am not qualified to discuss that.

It would appear that I didn’t have enough of typing, but I really did…honest

 

[pete]

run... don't walk... if you have the opportunity to train with dr yang. you will learn plenty from him.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I trained with Dr Yang briefly many years ago, push hands and some Qin Na. I left my first Tai Chi teacher for training with Dr Yang. I would have stayed with Yang if it weren’t for distance and finding my most recent teacher. I was training with my most recent teacher for 13 years up until 2 weeks ago.

He is also extremely good, his teacher was Tung Ying-chieh whose teacher was Yang Chen Fu. However over the last 2 years, sadly, he has changed. Now he teaches for health, has more students that are interested in the health side and do not want to know any martial arts. So he no longer does the MA side, so I decided it was time to move on.

Dr Yang’s form comes from the Yang Bin Hao line, pre-Yang Cheng Fu and to be honest I think need the change. The distance is still there, but I can better handle it now. So far the decision to go is not set in stone, but it looks very likely at this point. And I have a lot left to learn and I do believe this is where I need to be.

Thanks

 

[HKphooey]

Thanks for posting all this great info. I like reading about other styles.

 

[AceHBK]

Thanks for posting all this great info. I like reading about other styles.

I agree. The posts in here have granted me with a lot of knowledge