Normalcy Bias and Salman Rushdie

[JowGaWolf]

I don't think there should be a discussion how the audience should respond. Hell, I most likely would NOT go up there unless he's a member of my family or friends. It is NOT my responsibility to protect him. You guys seem to try to put responsibility on the audience. We pay money to listen to a speech, not there to risk our lives. I am pretty sure most of the common people do not have a HERO syndrome that they need to step up to save the day.

I'm not sure what I would have done. I can better analyze someone running towards me than someone running towards the stage. Things just aren't going to be analyzed the same way as it would have been if I was on the stage.

I bet it would take a few seconds for people to even register what they see, then to react to it.

If I was in the seats and not on stage I wouldn't react either unless I saw that the people on the stage were scared. I don't know what type of reaction it would be but I would "click on". In the case of Salman Rushdie, I would probably know that something was really wrong 2 or 3 seconds before he got stabbed and that's only if I wasn't checking my phone. Lots of variables that would delay reaction time. The biggest being the distance of where the man was running to and where I would be sitting.

If a 3rd grader punches a 4th grade bully in the nose for self-defense both get the same punishment. Despite good Samaritan laws in some states, helping out a fellow citizen can cost you in money or even jail time.

I never did like this. I told my son not to obey it. I told him that it's better to have week of suspension than to be in the hospital too because he didn't fight back in fear of "the school rules." Fortunately no one bullied or tried to bully my son in school, as far as I know of. I tell him stories about high school years and he looks at me like I'm the crazy one lol.. Which is fine with me that he didn't have to go through the crap I did.

You better think twice before getting involve.

This is how it was in Baltimore for me. A fight in the streets where a man is yelling at a woman could very be an argument that is drug or gang related. Getting involved in the wrong way could literally mean death. There are many ways to help, we only need to pick the one that leads to the best outcome and then hope we didn't get it wrong. But yeah, definitely think before jumping into action, and continue to process and analyze the situation as you are moving into action.

 

[Alan0354]

This is why over 200 Texas cops waited for 77 minutes doing nothing and let children to be killed. Not even one Texas cop had the courage to take the risk to save those children.

When a cop has the idea of de-escalation, avoid trouble, run away, just watching, ..., the world become a sad place to live.

Oh, I forgot to mention, it's NOT the police inside the school that were at fault, they were ordered not to breach by the upper commander. This is being investigated last I heard. That was bad. I am sure those police want to go in, but they can get fired disobeying the direct order.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is why over 200 Texas cops waited for 77 minutes doing nothing and let children to be killed. Not even one Texas cop had the courage to take the risk to save those children.

When a cop has the idea of de-escalation, avoid trouble, run away, just watching, ..., the world become a sad place to live.

It pretty much validates my perspective. No one wants to risk getting shot by an AR.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That was bad. I am sure those police want to go in, but they can get fired disobeying the direct order.

I'm sure some of them wanted to go in. Other's were probably glad that the order came through because they knew people like you would say the exact thing you stated. I got mixed feelings on that, personally. I don't follow anyone's orders and have been told to follow bad decisions and illegal ones as well. Each time I did what was right. I'm sure the the investigation will reveal the truth.

 

[Alan0354]

I'm sure some of them wanted to go in. Other's were probably glad that the order came through because they knew people like you would say the exact thing you stated. I got mixed feelings on that, personally. I don't follow anyone's orders and have been told to follow bad decisions and illegal ones as well. Each time I did what was right. I'm sure the the investigation will reveal the truth.

Those police inside don't have a choice, they have to listen to the superior and follow order, it's their job. We don't have to follow order because we are private citizens and we don't get pay. We don't ask to do those kind of job. As for me, I don't even want to think what would I do in those situation, if it ever happens, then I'll think about it at the time. It's no point of thinking about what I should do sitting in a comfy chair and typing on the computer.

I am neutral towards the police, I don't like or hate them. They choose the job at their own free will and they are paid for doing their job. They are supposed to go in if ordered. If they have second thoughts that it's too dangerous, they should quit. I don't call them brave if they go in because it's their job.

 

[lklawson]

II never did like this. I told my son not to obey it. I told him that it's better to have week of suspension than to be in the hospital too because he didn't fight back in fear of "the school rules." Fortunately no one bullied or tried to bully my son in school, as far as I know of. I tell him stories about high school years and he looks at me like I'm the crazy one lol.. Which is fine with me that he didn't have to go through the crap I did.

That would make him the exception. Last time I looked, research seemed to indicate that most kids are bullied at some point. The difference is in how often, how long, and how they deal with it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

It pretty much validates my perspective. No one wants to risk getting shot by an AR.

No one wants to be shot by ANYTHING. The .223 that most AR's are chambered for is a varmint cartridge, small game, often referred to as a "poodle shooter" in the hunting community. But no one wants to get shot by a poodle shooter, a .25ACP, or a .22LR. No one wants to be shot by ANYTHING.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JowGaWolf]

As for me, I don't even want to think what would I do in those situation, if it ever happens, then I'll think about it at the time. It's no point of thinking about what I should do sitting in a comfy chair and typing on the computer.

You don't have to dwell on it, but to think about it does no harm. The best time to think about what if scenarios is when you are in a comfy chair and typing on the computer. The worst time to think about what to do in an emergency is when you are in one. Your brain isn't going to process the situation very well if the situation is completely new. This is why children go through active shooter drills. It's why I went through Tornado drills in school. I was never in a Tornado at school. Many kids will never be in an active shooter situation.

If you haven't thought about it such things before hand then you will most likely have a difficult time to process the situation when it happens. You don't have to dwell on it. But a little thought about different scenarios can be more helpful than what people realize.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That would make him the exception. Last time I looked, research seemed to indicate that most kids are bullied at some point. The difference is in how often, how long, and how they deal with it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

yep. when he first told me that he was never picked on, I was shocked and didn't believe him, but based on what he told me and what teachers have told me. It looks like he went through all of his school years without an issue which is good because being bullied sucks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No one wants to be shot by ANYTHING. The .223 that most AR's are chambered for is a varmint cartridge, small game, often referred to as a "poodle shooter" in the hunting community. But no one wants to get shot by a poodle shooter, a .25ACP, or a .22LR. No one wants to be shot by ANYTHING.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

No one wants to be shot by Anything is a given. But it does matter at what you face. The type of weapon police will face will have a direct impact on the decisions that they will make and how they will approach a situation. While no one wants to be shot by Anything, if you had to confront a revolver vs an AR. I'm pretty sure your analysis of the situation and of the actions you may take will be different.

The type of weapon that you face will always have a direct impact on your actions and hopefully your approach

 

[JowGaWolf]

No one wants to be shot by ANYTHING. The .223 that most AR's are chambered for is a varmint cartridge, small game, often referred to as a "poodle shooter" in the hunting community. But no one wants to get shot by a poodle shooter, a .25ACP, or a .22LR. No one wants to be shot by ANYTHING.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I know for a fact that I don't want to be shot by anything. Rubber bullets don't make me feel any better about being shot even though the wounds from that and lethal ammo are completely different.

 

[lklawson]

No one wants to be shot by Anything is a given. But it does matter at what you face. The type of weapon police will face will have a direct impact on the decisions that they will make and how they will approach a situation. While no one wants to be shot by Anything, if you had to confront a revolver vs an AR. I'm pretty sure your analysis of the situation and of the actions you may take will be different.

The type of weapon that you face will always have a direct impact on your actions and hopefully your approach

If people are more afraid of this:

than they are afraid of this:

then they don't know gun stuff works.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JowGaWolf]

If people are more afraid of this:
View attachment 28787
than they are afraid of this:
View attachment 28788
then they don't know gun stuff works.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Are people getting shot with the M1 Garand?

The reason I ask is because if they were then they would feel the same way that they would about being shot with an AR-15.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I wasn't addressing the Genovese murder: in general, we've become a spectator society. I recall stories of the men in our family (pre-war) making their own fun and getting into trouble, knowing their neighbours, doors unlocked. They spent more of their time doing things rather than watching other people do things, at a distance.

The spectator effect has always been with us when there is a disconnect between individuals; it's a symptom, not a cause, of a loss of a shared community. I believe there are many causes of a loss of shared community, and one of them is the lack of direct engagement with individuals and our environment, replaced with indirect engagement moderated by software, algorithms, scripts, and screens.

I know you weren't-that was my own example of how this spectator effect existed before TV/computers/the digital age. Which means it's not a symptom of the digital age.

 

[Steve]

Spectator culture has overridden Good Samaritan responsibilities.

I'm really interested to see the data on this. Anecdotally, it's very common to hear stories about good Samaritans, and if we can all agree that it's unlikely 100% of them are reported in the news, I would surmise there are more examples than are reported. And we can see examples of the bystander effect going back a long way, suggesting it's not a generational thing. I mean, isn't the Good Samaritan story itself an example of the bystander effect?

Point is, we know both exist in the world... but I am super interested in any data that would tell us whether one is becoming more common now.

 

[lklawson]

Are people getting shot with the M1 Garand?

The reason I ask is because if they were then they would feel the same way that they would about being shot with an AR-15.

People who are afraid of getting shot by an AR15 don't understand statistics. In 2020, there were 21,570 homicides in the U.S. Of those, 455 homicides were committed with rifles of any kind, of which AR's were a fraction of that.

People scared of an AR15 are simply not thinking rationally.

 

[Steve]

Oh, I forgot to mention, it's NOT the police inside the school that were at fault, they were ordered not to breach by the upper commander. This is being investigated last I heard. That was bad. I am sure those police want to go in, but they can get fired disobeying the direct order.

I think there is plenty of blame to go around on that one. The police, the commander, and a lot of other people who contributed in a straight line to that massacre. I am not a religious person, but I wish there were a hell so these people could burn in it for eternity.

 

[lklawson]

I'm really interested to see the data on this. Anecdotally, it's very common to hear stories about good Samaritans, and if we can all agree that it's unlikely 100% of them are reported in the news, I would surmise there are more examples than are reported. And we can see examples of the bystander effect going back a long way, suggesting it's not a generational thing. I mean, isn't the Good Samaritan story itself an example of the bystander effect?

Point is, we know both exist in the world... but I am super interested in any data that would tell us whether one is becoming more common now.

I dug up a list of references.

• Darley, J. M., & Latané´, B. (1968). Bystander intervention in emergencies: Diffusion of responsibility. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 8, 377–383.
• Garcia, Stephen M, Weaver, Kim, Moskowitz, Gordon B, & Darley, John M. (2002). Crowded Minds. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 83(4), 843–853.
• Hortensius, Ruud, & De Gelder, Beatrice. (2018). From Empathy to Apathy: The Bystander Effect Revisited. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 27(4), 249–256.
• Latané´, B., & Darley, J. M. (1968). Group inhibition of bystander intervention in emergencies. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 10, 215–221.
• Latané´, B., & Darley, J. M. (1970). The unresponsive bystander: Why doesn’t he help? New York, NY: Appleton-Century-Croft.
• Latané´, B., & Darley, J. M. (1976). <em>Help in a crisis: Bystander response to an emergency. Morristown, NJ: General Learning Press.
• Latané´, B., & Nida, S. (1981). Ten years of research on group size and helping. Psychological Bulletin, 89, 308 –324.
• Manning, R., Levine, M., & Collins, A. (2007). The Kitty Genovese murder and the social psychology of helping: The parable of the 38 witnesses. American Psychologist, 62, 555–562.
• Prentice, D. (2007). Pluralistic ignorance. In R. F. Baumeister & K. D. Vohs (Eds.), Encyclopedia of social psychology (Vol. 1, pp. 674–674). Thousand Oaks, CA: SAGE Publications, Inc.
• Rendsvig, R. K. (2014). Pluralistic ignorance in the bystander effect: Informational dynamics of unresponsive witnesses in situations calling for intervention. Synthese (Dordrecht), 191(11), 2471–2498.
• Shotland, R. L., & Heinold, W. D. (1985). Bystander response to arterial bleeding: Helping skills, the decision-making process, and differentiating the helping response. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
• Shotland, R. L., & Straw, M. K. (1976). Bystander response to an assault: When a man attacks a woman. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 34(5), 990.
• Siegal, H. A. (1972). The Unresponsive Bystander: Why Doesn’t He Help? 1(3), 226–227.
• Van Bommel, Marco, Van Prooijen, Jan-Willem, Elffers, Henk, & Van Lange, Paul A.M. (2012). Be aware to care: Public self-awareness leads to a reversal of the bystander effect. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, 48(4), 926–930.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

I dug up a list of references.

• Darley, J. M., & Latané´, B. (1968). Bystander intervention in emergencies: Diffusion of responsibility. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 8, 377–383.
• Garcia, Stephen M, Weaver, Kim, Moskowitz, Gordon B, & Darley, John M. (2002). Crowded Minds. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 83(4), 843–853.
• Hortensius, Ruud, & De Gelder, Beatrice. (2018). From Empathy to Apathy: The Bystander Effect Revisited. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 27(4), 249–256.
• Latané´, B., & Darley, J. M. (1968). Group inhibition of bystander intervention in emergencies. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 10, 215–221.
• Latané´, B., & Darley, J. M. (1970). The unresponsive bystander: Why doesn’t he help? New York, NY: Appleton-Century-Croft.
• Latané´, B., & Darley, J. M. (1976). <em>Help in a crisis: Bystander response to an emergency. Morristown, NJ: General Learning Press.
• Latané´, B., & Nida, S. (1981). Ten years of research on group size and helping. Psychological Bulletin, 89, 308 –324.
• Manning, R., Levine, M., & Collins, A. (2007). The Kitty Genovese murder and the social psychology of helping: The parable of the 38 witnesses. American Psychologist, 62, 555–562.
• Prentice, D. (2007). Pluralistic ignorance. In R. F. Baumeister & K. D. Vohs (Eds.), Encyclopedia of social psychology (Vol. 1, pp. 674–674). Thousand Oaks, CA: SAGE Publications, Inc.
• Rendsvig, R. K. (2014). Pluralistic ignorance in the bystander effect: Informational dynamics of unresponsive witnesses in situations calling for intervention. Synthese (Dordrecht), 191(11), 2471–2498.
• Shotland, R. L., & Heinold, W. D. (1985). Bystander response to arterial bleeding: Helping skills, the decision-making process, and differentiating the helping response. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
• Shotland, R. L., & Straw, M. K. (1976). Bystander response to an assault: When a man attacks a woman. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 34(5), 990.
• Siegal, H. A. (1972). The Unresponsive Bystander: Why Doesn’t He Help? 1(3), 226–227.
• Van Bommel, Marco, Van Prooijen, Jan-Willem, Elffers, Henk, & Van Lange, Paul A.M. (2012). Be aware to care: Public self-awareness leads to a reversal of the bystander effect. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, 48(4), 926–930.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Cool. Which ones have you actually read? All of them? Can you share a few relevant excerpts?

Also, can you share where you copied this list from? I'm curious to take a look and see if there is anything from the last decade available.

 

[JowGaWolf]

People scared of an AR15 are simply not thinking rationally.

That doesn't stop them from being afraid of it when confronted with it or not being confronted with it. From when I lived in Baltimore the AR-15 wasn't the issue to be concerned with. There are a lot of other options for being shot in the hood. In all the shootings I could remember, the AR-15 wasn't in the mix. Inner city shooters prefer things that are easier to hide and ditch if need be. A rifle of any type is just going to stick out in the hood.