Nine palace system?

[qi-tah]

Hi all;

who here practices the Nine palace system for ba gua? From what i've read it is a pretty advanced practice, if you do it, how long had you been training before you got onto this stuff? Also, what environment do you practice it in? I've heard of it done with both inanimate objects (poles) and responsive obstacles (people)... which do you do? Do you have any other "fighting games" for ba gua practice in yr system?

Cheers! :asian:

 

[Steel Tiger]

I have to admit that I have only touched on Nine Palace training. My senoir student and I have run through it a number of times using inanimate objects. Its not easy. It would be interesting to do with people, but we don't have enough.

How long had I been training before I started the Nine Palaces? Let's see, fifteen years for me and five years for my student. I'm still not comfortable with it after five years. Its quite exhausting.

 

[qi-tah]

I have to admit that I have only touched on Nine Palace training. My senoir student and I have run through it a number of times using inanimate objects. Its not easy. It would be interesting to do with people, but we don't have enough.

How long had I been training before I started the Nine Palaces? Let's see, fifteen years for me and five years for my student. I'm still not comfortable with it after five years. Its quite exhausting.

Wow ST, so you have been doing the 9 palace training for 5 years... that sounds like a bit more than just touching on it! :asian:

I don't actually know very much about the practice apart from what i have been able to glean from a bit of research - I know it involves walking in patterns around nine poles, but not much more. Are the patterns predetermined (like forms), or are they more fluid and reactive? Can more than one person do the practice at the same time? (As in walking the circle?) I take it you are attacking the poles with various strikes - is this similar to working on a wooden man (or 9!) at all? If you don't mind me asking, how do you feel the 9 palaces training has improved or added to yr ba gua practice? Do you think it has helped yr applications and/or fight tactics?

Sorry about all the questions, i'm just mega-curious!

I've done a beginning figure of eight palm change exercise (around two "poles", but really just jumpers on the floor), but that's all so far.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Well now where to begin?

Firstly the Nine Palaces refer to the Chinese magic square, in which all the rows, columns and diagonals add up to fifteen. As a consequence there is a defined pattern as to how the "palaces" are laid out:

6 1 8
7 5 3
2 9 4


So if you follow the strict numerical progression there is a predetermined pattern.

I don't think it is possible to walk the Nine Palaces with another person. There is a lot of transition between the points and if two people were to attempt it they would likely run into each other.

At first (after simple figure eight walking) you should simply circle the poles (or whatever you use), moving as smoothly as possible from one position to the next. This is where interesting things occur. If you look at the magic square you will see that there is a need for long transitions, say from position 1 to position 2, or from 7 to 8, and short transitions, as from 3 to 4 or 5 to 6. I have found that these two types of transitions help understand direction change when walking the circle.

Once you are comfortable circling the poles you then progress to fighting them. Its useful to actually have something to fight at this point. a jumper on the ground (or a bucket as I have used) just wont do the job. Use different strikes and direction changes at each pole.

When you are really comfortable with the process you move from position to, spending as much time at each as you feel appropriate. It a funny thing, you can feel like staying at one pole for ten or twenty circles and yet at others you only stay for two or three. I think this is a good indication of what bagua is. There is clearly a structure but the structure encompasses variation and encourages its. You will likely never walk the Nine Palaces the same way twice.

Its complex and exhausting, but ultimately rewarding as you gain a deeper understanding of the art of bagua. What it has done for my applications is to further my understanding of where speed and power come from.


You should note that in Cheng Ting Hua's bagua there is something called the Nine Palaces which is different to this. It is a qigong exercise involving three levels of three powers (Heaven, Mankind, Earth). Its cool but its not the same.

 

[qi-tah]

That's great information ST, thanks! :asian: So, from what you are saying, you start out with each pole having a specific attack or palm change, like the old eight palms, and you later move on to improvising and stringing several attacks together, until you are moving freely?
Can the poles be placed closer and further apart, or are there fixed distances between them? I can imagaine the poles being placed closer and closer so you have to circle and twist more tightly, maybe being able to attack more than one pole during transitions or circling each station?

Does anyone else have experience with this kinda training?

 

[Steel Tiger]

That's great information ST, thanks! :asian: So, from what you are saying, you start out with each pole having a specific attack or palm change, like the old eight palms, and you later move on to improvising and stringing several attacks together, until you are moving freely?
Can the poles be placed closer and further apart, or are there fixed distances between them? I can imagaine the poles being placed closer and closer so you have to circle and twist more tightly, maybe being able to attack more than one pole during transitions or circling each station?

Does anyone else have experience with this kinda training?

Well, yes that's kind of the idea. Its not so necessary to use specific palms with specific poles, but rather to start simple and become more complex. Old eight palms is a good starting point.

The closest I have seen the poles was in some photos of Adam Hsu. He had them about two feet apart, but that might have been a constraint based in lack of space. But remember, the better you get with bagua, the small your circle should become.