Next Step in Handgun Evolution?
- Thread starter SFC JeffJ
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Skpotamus
Brown Belt
I think the future is going to be in caseless cartridges (not just handguns though) . Most jamming issues with firearms are caused by ejection issues. A caseless cartridge would eliminate a lot of those problems.
While gas operated pistols are neat, they aren't really needed. Recoil reduction is a moot point for most SD rounds. Faster lockup times mean quicker shooting, but you're talking good competition shooting times. The only real reason I see for them is for people who want a rifle round (5.56, 7.62 etc) in a handgun that won't beat them to death.
YMMV.
While gas operated pistols are neat, they aren't really needed. Recoil reduction is a moot point for most SD rounds. Faster lockup times mean quicker shooting, but you're talking good competition shooting times. The only real reason I see for them is for people who want a rifle round (5.56, 7.62 etc) in a handgun that won't beat them to death.
YMMV.
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I'm rather leery about caseless ammo. The reason why good ol-fashioned brass cased ammo is so stable, is because the powder and primer are essentially sealed off from the atmosphere, and that brass and copper don't oxidize any further beyond a thin layer of oxidation.
With the propellant being exposed to air, I wonder how they're going to be able to make a formula that will be completely stable, while still giving the same kind of performance?
Deaf Smith
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Megawatt lasers using super capacitors. Yes Megawatt.
Might not get 10 shots before the capacitor needs to be replaced (like a magazine) but it would still burn a hole through a person with just a .1 second burst.
Science marches on.
Deaf
Might not get 10 shots before the capacitor needs to be replaced (like a magazine) but it would still burn a hole through a person with just a .1 second burst.
Science marches on.
Deaf
KenpoTex
Senior Master
hmm...interesting question.
I could see the gas-gun thing...IIRC, someone did a striker-fired gas-gun a few years ago (can't remember the name). It was definitely an interesting piece. Of course the downside is that they get HOT really quickly (e.g. H&K P7).
I could see the gas-gun thing...IIRC, someone did a striker-fired gas-gun a few years ago (can't remember the name). It was definitely an interesting piece. Of course the downside is that they get HOT really quickly (e.g. H&K P7).
sgtmac_46
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Considering that 1911 is still considered by many to be the premier handgun (whether you agree or not) and that design is almost 100 years old, I suspect that we've reached the pentacle of handgun design for quite some time. The only revolutions will be in materials, not in radically new designs.
The problem with the pistol and rifle is this....there really isn't much that can be done to make a better one, as the originally designs of the last 100 years are pretty damn effective. New materials to make lighter versions, more corrosion resistant versions, etc are the only direction folks are going now....but as to new and more efficient designs? They don't seem to work better than the tried and true old stuff.
Perhaps someone next week will come out with the 'NVGT' (New Very Good Thing) to prove me wrong, but I suspect it'll be nothing more than a variation on the same theme.
The problem with the pistol and rifle is this....there really isn't much that can be done to make a better one, as the originally designs of the last 100 years are pretty damn effective. New materials to make lighter versions, more corrosion resistant versions, etc are the only direction folks are going now....but as to new and more efficient designs? They don't seem to work better than the tried and true old stuff.
Perhaps someone next week will come out with the 'NVGT' (New Very Good Thing) to prove me wrong, but I suspect it'll be nothing more than a variation on the same theme.
Skpotamus
Brown Belt
sgtmac, a neat point about the 1911. The other handgun many tout as the top dog is the glock (whether you love them or hate them). I once had a higher up in the glock company show me a prototype gun made around the same time as the 1911 that had almost the exact same striker mechanism as the glocks. Gaston Glock and his manufacturers tweaked the design, changed the materials and voila!. Glock. You're probably right regarding mechanical firearms. We've had some incredibly smart peopel design darned good ones almost a century ago.
Check out the metalstorm system that they developed recently using electronic ignition and caseless cartridges. They had an episode of future weapons on the discovery channel with it. The navy seal host fired one of the handguns. A slow mo camera showed the gun putting three rounds in downrange before the gun kicked up in recoil. All three rounds went through the same hole on the target. Different calbiers can be loaded intothe same gun (different barrels) and you can fire some of the systems up to 1 million rounds per minute. No moving parts in the firing system to jam. Pretty much all electric. 16,000 9mm rounds per second out of their handgun. Looks pretty neat.
I couldn't find the actual video of hte host shooting hte handgun. But if you can find it, it's really cool. 3 9mm's leave the barrel before the gun kicks up in recoil. 3 9mm's in teh same hole in the target.
Check out the metalstorm system that they developed recently using electronic ignition and caseless cartridges. They had an episode of future weapons on the discovery channel with it. The navy seal host fired one of the handguns. A slow mo camera showed the gun putting three rounds in downrange before the gun kicked up in recoil. All three rounds went through the same hole on the target. Different calbiers can be loaded intothe same gun (different barrels) and you can fire some of the systems up to 1 million rounds per minute. No moving parts in the firing system to jam. Pretty much all electric. 16,000 9mm rounds per second out of their handgun. Looks pretty neat.
I couldn't find the actual video of hte host shooting hte handgun. But if you can find it, it's really cool. 3 9mm's leave the barrel before the gun kicks up in recoil. 3 9mm's in teh same hole in the target.
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Deaf Smith
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Anyone wonder what a EMP burst would do to a all eletronic gun with electronic ignition? And that includes my laser/phaser gun above.
Deaf
Deaf
That woul dmost likely depend on whether it was active at the time of the EMP or not. Plus, now it's understood better, EMP isn't the "killer of all things electrical" that it was once thought to be.
sgtmac_46
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Here's the problem we have when discussing the subject......are we talking personal arms or something else?
I think personal arms have reached a zenith of sorts.....at least for foreseeable future. Better materials are about the only thing that will change, the designs are pretty much at their peak for what we are using.
The electric guns and their ilk aren't going to be able to function as 'personal arms'. The metal storm weapons aren't going to find their nitch as personal arms, they are going to find their role as part of larger weapons systems, for example on aircraft, on vehicles, as area denial weapons, as weapons designed to intercept other weapons like rockets and missiles.
At their core, as a man portable personal weapon those systems don't really do anything better than current systems. You can't take advantage of the ability to fire 10 bullets simultaneously out of the same barrel because of the limited ability to carry ammunition. What can be killed with 10 bullets can just as easily be killed with one, leaving you 9 more bullets.
So, again, we really have to define our terms to figure what might be the next step.....and since we've picked handguns, i.e. a portable easily concealed personal weapon, it really limits any real improvements I see coming down the pipe.
The irony is that just about every semi-auto on the market today is a variation on a Robert Browning design.....the Glock and their clones being exceptions. You have the 1911 and the Hi-Power and guns that have copied either.
I think personal arms have reached a zenith of sorts.....at least for foreseeable future. Better materials are about the only thing that will change, the designs are pretty much at their peak for what we are using.
The electric guns and their ilk aren't going to be able to function as 'personal arms'. The metal storm weapons aren't going to find their nitch as personal arms, they are going to find their role as part of larger weapons systems, for example on aircraft, on vehicles, as area denial weapons, as weapons designed to intercept other weapons like rockets and missiles.
At their core, as a man portable personal weapon those systems don't really do anything better than current systems. You can't take advantage of the ability to fire 10 bullets simultaneously out of the same barrel because of the limited ability to carry ammunition. What can be killed with 10 bullets can just as easily be killed with one, leaving you 9 more bullets.
So, again, we really have to define our terms to figure what might be the next step.....and since we've picked handguns, i.e. a portable easily concealed personal weapon, it really limits any real improvements I see coming down the pipe.
The irony is that just about every semi-auto on the market today is a variation on a Robert Browning design.....the Glock and their clones being exceptions. You have the 1911 and the Hi-Power and guns that have copied either.
Great points.
I think the next "big step" we'll see in firearms themselves are just better materials, allowing you to pack more bang into smaller packages. And I don't think you'll see major changes in that regard anytime soon.
Specifically for law enforcement (and to a lesser degree general self defense), I suspect that in the next several years we'll see products like Taser's XREP developed for pistols.
I think the next "big step" we'll see in firearms themselves are just better materials, allowing you to pack more bang into smaller packages. And I don't think you'll see major changes in that regard anytime soon.
Specifically for law enforcement (and to a lesser degree general self defense), I suspect that in the next several years we'll see products like Taser's XREP developed for pistols.
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One of the steps where handguns evolved significantly, was after the 1994 Assault Weapons ban, where magazine limitations encouraged the manufacturers to find ways to cram 10 rounds into a smaller weapon, as well as working on ways to get larger bore rounds into those smaller weapons, too.
The Kel-Tec pistols, the subcompact Glocks (26, 27, 28, 33), etc., came out as a result, and combine a really nice blend of firepower (9 or 10 rounds), decent calibers, while still maintaining that characteristic ironclad functionality of a Glock pistol. Don't forget, that the compact Glock 30, which gives you 10+1 rounds of .45 ACP fun, came about.
Also, with newer materials, you started seeing titanium alloys, along with scandium alloys, that allowed for an even lighter J-frame sized revolver.
Yes, I truly hated that stupid piece of legislation known as the assault weapons ban, but if there is a good thing that came from it, it's that the manufacturers came out with some really nice designs.
The Kel-Tec pistols, the subcompact Glocks (26, 27, 28, 33), etc., came out as a result, and combine a really nice blend of firepower (9 or 10 rounds), decent calibers, while still maintaining that characteristic ironclad functionality of a Glock pistol. Don't forget, that the compact Glock 30, which gives you 10+1 rounds of .45 ACP fun, came about.
Also, with newer materials, you started seeing titanium alloys, along with scandium alloys, that allowed for an even lighter J-frame sized revolver.
Yes, I truly hated that stupid piece of legislation known as the assault weapons ban, but if there is a good thing that came from it, it's that the manufacturers came out with some really nice designs.
sgtmac_46
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Exactly! Lighter and stronger materials are the real modern improvements.
That'd work for crowd control that's for sure... to load up the shotgun with those and several officers working as a group... yep.
It's a little off-topic, but Taser International has another product for crowd control:
Taser Shockwave
Yes, that is essentially a daisy chained wall of Tasers.
