Newsweek Poll: Majority of Americans Believe the Bible to be Historically Accurate

[Bob Hubbard]

Thanks.
My beliefs do empower me and millions of other Christians.

I'm glad. I've seen it said often that those with an active faith achieve more than those who either are just 'there' or don't really believe anything. (Not refering to athiests here, but the 'eh' folks)

(1)Speaking about what you believe regarding the history of the birth of Jesus.
This morning's sermon at church was from Matthew 1:18-25, about Joseph discovering his betrothed was pregnant.According to Jewish law, he could have had her publicly judged and stoned; instead he decided to just divorce her quietly. (This is before the angel came to Joseph in the dream to tell him that Mary had conceived by the Holy Spirit).
The gist of this is that people hurt us and wound us deeply all the time... words, actions, deeds. Do you respond with anger, give like for like, want to hurt them as much as or even more than they hurt you? Or can you show mercy as Joseph did?
I guess I don't consider this hard to believe. And, yes, I know that it is just one passage of the whole story.

There are many IMO good lessons contained in the Christian Bible. One of my favorite lessons is the 'turn the other cheek' one, as well as the love and respect shown by how the 12 and Jesus interacted. Lessons in love, trust, humility, etc. I'm also a fan of Og Mandino ("The Christ Commision" is one of my favorite books btw) who uses much of the same parable style. The lessons contained within, waiting to be drawn out IMO, are not diminished by the historical and archeological inaccuracies.

(2) If archeological proof of a "historical Jesus" were found, would it change your opinion about his divinity, his message, his life?

That's actually 3 questions.
- His Divinity? No.
- His Message? It depends on the evidence.
- His Life? It depends.

Case in point: I saw a (I think History Chanel) special on Jesus, which painted him as a revolutionary, trying to change his society. It also strongly suggested that Judas was not a betrayer, but in fact the parties 'money man', and that his turning over of Jesus to the Elders was in fact at Jesus's request....that Jesus and he were in fact best of friends. The suggestion was that his painting as "The Great Betrayer" was caused by the tragic ending, and anger from the other disciples. There are also the other Gospels to be considered, many of which have supposedly been buried for centuries by the Church as they paint a different portrait of Jesus that the 'official 4'.

(3) Just out of curiousity, why sometimes BOB and sometimes KAITH? if you don't mind my asking

Good question.
In fact, that was a great! question....I'm gonna copy it to my 'hello' in the Meet N Greet forum and answer it there.

Peace,
Melissa

:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

One should like to see the tangible proof that:

a) The world was created and populated in six days;

b) Adam and Eve really existed;

c) There really was a Great Flood and an Ark;

d) Joshua made ths sun stand still;

e) God made the Nile run red with blood;

f) Jesus was the Son of God.

The real question is: why isn't faith enough for people? Why do they insist upon having evidence that does not, and probably cannot, exist? Why isn't the world enough for them, given that there's plenty of room for faith in the Universe that we can easily see around us?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

One should like to see the tangible proof that:

c) There really was a Great Flood and an Ark;

e) God made the Nile run red with blood;

I have seen reference to a great flood in many different texts, and vaguely remember seeing some archeology show where they pointed at certain evidence of flooding. Unfortunately, it's been quite a while.

As to the Nile running red bit, I dunno if God did it, but I do recall there being some more mortal reason...something to do with runoffs and red clay.

The rest, I can't comment on.

 

[mj_lover]

I have seen reference to a great flood in many different texts, and vaguely remember seeing some archeology show where they pointed at certain evidence of flooding. Unfortunately, it's been quite a while.

I remember seeing something on that. They discovered that there was a big flood around the period the bible discribes in the middle east area, where the bible originated. It by no means coverd the earth, but to people back then, their "world" was allot smaller then ours, as they did not travel as much, or had the tech to discover other places.

 

[loki09789]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6650997/site/newsweek/

"Sixty-seven percent say they believe that the entire story of Christmas—the Virgin Birth, the angelic proclamation to the shepherds, the Star of Bethlehem and the Wise Men from the East—is historically accurate. Twenty-four percent of Americans believe the story of Christmas is a theological invention written to affirm faith in Jesus Christ, the poll shows. In general, say 55 percent of those polled, every word of the Bible is literally accurate. Thirty-eight percent do not believe that about the Bible."

Now, I realize that public opinion polls aren't exactly the most accurate measures on the face of the planet, and that fundamentalism being high in America almost goes without saying, but the sheer percentages brought up just make me wonder whether this whole democratic exchange of ideas thing is working. Thoughts?

It isn't the 'fundamentalists' that made this biblical 'folklore' popularly accepted so much as the Victorian creation of the "Christmas Tradition" that people buy into now. Christmas trees, the manger story...drummer boy....

you name it.

I bet that there are just as many people who believe in the American 'folklore' that surrounds Paul Revere, the Liberty Bell, the Boston Tea party and so on...

 

[rmcrobertson]

One should like to see tangible proofs, as with any scientific theory, of the sort that support evolution.

Certainly, noting a vague recolletion of something that one thinks one saw once ain't gettin' it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I totally agree. However, mentally fried as I am from the recent server issue, plus my memory failing with age, I was hoping someone else might have seen the same and could 'nudge' me. I've got 1 of the things on tape...will check them ASAP.

 

[qizmoduis]

Betcha fewer than 10% of adults have ever read the bible cover to cover, so it's pretty stupid to poll people on their opinion of it.

I have. Several times, in fact. It's one of the reasons why I'm an atheist.

 

[heretic888]

My beliefs do empower me and millions of other Christians.

'Empower' might not be the right wording here...

This morning's sermon at church was from Matthew 1:18-25, about Joseph discovering his betrothed was pregnant.According to Jewish law, he could have had her publicly judged and stoned; instead he decided to just divorce her quietly. (This is before the angel came to Joseph in the dream to tell him that Mary had conceived by the Holy Spirit).
The gist of this is that people hurt us and wound us deeply all the time... words, actions, deeds. Do you respond with anger, give like for like, want to hurt them as much as or even more than they hurt you? Or can you show mercy as Joseph did?
I guess I don't consider this hard to believe. And, yes, I know that it is just one passage of the whole story.

I wonder, then, if you believe the story that Zeus impegnated the virgin Cybele with a divine lightning to give birth to the godman Dionysus to be "not hard to believe" also??

(2) If archeological proof of a "historical Jesus" were found, would it change your opinion about his divinity, his message, his life?

Nope. Logical fallacy to think one legitimizes the other.

The "Christian" message can work without recourse to historical proof (as proponents of 'diabolical mimicry' the centuries over have demonstrated), and the historical proof can be established without recourse to the "Christian" message.

 

[heretic888]

What is conflicting about the stories here? I'm not trying to say your wrong, I'm just curious as to what you see as conflicting.

Well, set aside that the actual details of Mary's pregnancy and Christ's birth differ in the various accounts --- it could just be the completely contradictory patriarchal lineages found in Matthew and Mark.

Heh. Apparently, Joseph had two daddies. Hey, who said the Bible teaches homophobia??

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, the 2 videos I've got are "The Face of Jesus" (where they do that neat cgi-clay thing to a scull from that time period), and Discovery Channel :: Jesus: The Complete Story.

The CGI work in both was phenominal.

 

[heretic888]

I'm glad. I've seen it said often that those with an active faith achieve more than those who either are just 'there' or don't really believe anything. (Not refering to athiests here, but the 'eh' folks)

Personally, I'd trust one of the much more prevalent quasi-deists within western Christianity over the "active faith" types.

There are many IMO good lessons contained in the Christian Bible. One of my favorite lessons is the 'turn the other cheek' one, as well as the love and respect shown by how the 12 and Jesus interacted. Lessons in love, trust, humility, etc. I'm also a fan of Og Mandino ("The Christ Commision" is one of my favorite books btw) who uses much of the same parable style. The lessons contained within, waiting to be drawn out IMO, are not diminished by the historical and archeological inaccuracies.

Which is all well and good, but nothing you won't get from reading Plato.

Case in point: I saw a (I think History Chanel) special on Jesus, which painted him as a revolutionary, trying to change his society.

Yes. This is in keeping with the "Christ Projectionism" I mentioned earlier. They coincide neatly with the civil rights movements throughout the West, as does emphasizing the "Jewish-ness" of Jesus (and downplaying the clear anti-Semitic threads within scripture) since our alliance with Israel.

The suggestion was that his painting as "The Great Betrayer" was caused by the tragic ending, and anger from the other disciples. There are also the other Gospels to be considered, many of which have supposedly been buried for centuries by the Church as they paint a different portrait of Jesus that the 'official 4'.

Naw. That's a load of poopy.

Many Osiris-Dionysus stories feature a close friend (sometimes a brother) who betrayed the godman. Nothing new about it. In fact, many of the details of the Judas thread are pilfered directly from Plato's recounts of Socrates' arrest and betrayal (in which a 'disciple' of his paid 30 silver pieces to let Socrates walk, to which he bluntly refused).

Actually, some of the non-canonical threads about Judas portray him as a 'twin brother' of Jesus. It has to do with the gnostic relationship of the divine Self and the mortal ego (which 'denies' or 'betrays' the true Self).

Laterz.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Many Osiris-Dionysus stories feature a close friend (sometimes a brother) who betrayed the godman. Nothing new about it. In fact, many of the details of the Judas thread are pilfered directly from Plato's recounts of Socrates' arrest and betrayal (in which a 'disciple' of his paid 30 silver pieces to let Socrates walk, to which he bluntly refused).

Actually, some of the non-canonical threads about Judas portray him as a 'twin brother' of Jesus. It has to do with the gnostic relationship of the divine Self and the mortal ego (which 'denies' or 'betrays' the true Self).

Interesting....I'll have to go read up on my Greek historys again....

 

[BlackCatBonz]

read a book called "the jesus mysteries"
it pretty much puts under one cover all of the correlations between osiris-dionysus-jesus. inner mysteries of pagan religion, the greek stories that are almost imitated perfectly in the bible.

shawn

 

[7starmantis]

Well, set aside that the actual details of Mary's pregnancy and Christ's birth differ in the various accounts --- it could just be the completely contradictory patriarchal lineages found in Matthew and Mark.

Heh. Apparently, Joseph had two daddies. Hey, who said the Bible teaches homophobia??

Could you point me to the exact location of these conflicting stories?

7sm

 

[loki09789]

read a book called "the jesus mysteries"
it pretty much puts under one cover all of the correlations between osiris-dionysus-jesus. inner mysteries of pagan religion, the greek stories that are almost imitated perfectly in the bible.

shawn

Look, also at the parallels between the accounts/legend/history of Alexander the Great's life and the 'hero' tale of the Christ and some interesting parallels show up.

Again, I think the majority of misconceptions about Christmas and understanding is the Victorian 'traditions' that we live with today.

Combine that with the fact that most people don't actively pursue anything beyond an elementary school level of philosophical/theological understanding and you have some idea as to why things are as they are on this topic.

People 'like' things like Santa Claus and the story of the three wisemen (actually they were Pagan astrologers, but hey, 'wisemen' is easier to swallow than the idea that the Messiah was 'ratified' by three star watching 'Heathens' to the modern Christian mentallity), and want to hold onto the 'spirit' of Christmas and not the 'reality' of the seasonal observation.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

You mean the fact that "Santa Claus" is actually a Coke Cola revamp of a European Diefication of the pagan earth spirit, often refered to as the Green Man?

*whistles innocently*

 

[Satt]

Are you telling me there is no Santa???!!! Crap I knew it!!!!!!! I'm gonna call my mother right now and give her a pice of my mind!!! LOL.
:idunno:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, quick question:

Woman in a white dress, veiled, long flowing train, carrying a bouquet of flowers.

Who is that?

A woman getting married, or a pagan godess?

It's both.

The former is in the form of the later.

The godesses name?

Bride. (Pronounced Breed).
You may have heard her called Saint Bridgit too. An old Irish fertility god, made into a saint and absorbed into the Christian faith. :wavey:

"Everything you know is wrong....- Weird Al"

 

[heretic888]

Could you point me to the exact location of these conflicting stories?

7sm

Matthew 1: 1-18
Luke 3: 23-38

Both contain completely contradictory patrilineal geneologies for 'Jesus Christ'.

They make no sense anyway.

Y'see, the whole point of the geneologies was to 'prove' Jesus is a direct descendent of David (thus fulfilling Messianic prophecy) through his father, Joseph.

But, here's the catcher, either:

A) Jesus is the literal son of Joseph, is of the same bloodline of David, fulfills the Messianic prophecy, but is not the literal Son of God (via Virgin Birth)...

or

B) Jesus is the literal Son of God, born of the Virgin Birth, not the son of Joseph, and therefore not of the same bloodline as David, and therefore not fulfilling Messianic prophecy.

You can't have it both ways.