New rules for TKD

[terryl965]

If you had a voice in the rule making for TKD tournaments, either Oplympic or Point what rules would you like to see and the reasons behind your quest.


I'm asking for two main reason the first is obvilous, to see what people really want, the second is for a personal reason. Me and some other Instructor would like to put together 5 or 6 tournaments on in a couple of years and seperate them by regions and have a real sanction TKD season with a real following without all the red tape just to say that saids bad.
But as mosy of you know not always is the best athlete going to win, it reality it is who plays what games that matter to most organization and I would love to have a strict guidelines for poomsae and sparring. I believe hands should be used and head shot should also bee allow with the hands as well, I also believe we should be letting the fighters fight withoyt stoppage and then the refs score on a basis as is you was the aggressor who really landed the blows and who really dominated the match.

I really would love for some strong personality to give there perspective on what they would love to see.

 

[Kacey]

I've never sparred under Olympic rules, or any other WTF rules, so I can't really say - I have, however, sparred point and continuous under ITF rules, and see merit to both for training - for tournament competition, however, I prefer continuous, except for low gup ranks in some instances, and as an additional activity at a tournament.

For training purposes, point sparring teaches people how to strike first, and strike for a valid point - which, in general, means that an uncontrolled, unpadded strike would cause noticeable damage to the opponent. It is particularly valuable for students who are counter-fighters, since the opportunity to counter-fight is lost in most point-sparring situations.

Continuous sparring (which, in the ITF, means a 2 minute round only stopped if there is injury to one opponent, significant fouls that necessitate a time stop, or equipment or facility problems, such as pad strap coming loose or a slick spot on the floor) teaches you to keep fighting no matter how well you think you are doing - a more realistic scenario for self-defense. Only after the match do you find out how you really did - and many students, especially color belts, find out that they didn't do nearly as well as they thought they had. In addition, combination techniques become a necessity - a difficult skill to learn in point sparring.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Terry, your giving me a flash back to the old days. I agree with what you would like to see, but i'm affraid that would be a no no for the powers that be. It would be too much like karate and that's what they wanted to get away from in the first place.

As for todays style of tournament fighting being good for SD, well like everything in life, folks are intitled to their opinion(s). IMO, SD suffers from this type of competition focus. If one trains to attack specific targets, that are governed by rules of engagement, then when the you know what hits the fan, that same focus wil take over in the majority of people. There will always be the exception that can redirect the focus to the correct level, but as stated, it is the exception. The most obvious thing here is the introduction of muscle memory (targeting) and that will be the main reaction under pressure.

 

[exile]

I'd like to see two things: hand strikes to all target positions rewarded with the same points as kicks, and elbow strikes to all body targets not only allowed but rewarded. More generally, I'd like to see rule changes that favored the capable hand tech fighter.

 

[Laurentkd]

I like the idea of hand contact to the head. Also I think continuous sparring is better than point. I would also make it very clear that the competitors are supposed to FIGHT not stand and bounce and wait for the other to come in. Not sure the best way to enforce this (the current warnings don't work) but in a perfect world that's what I would like to see. I also like your idea Terry about the winner being the one who obviously dominated the match. Sometimes I wonder if it would be better if judges didn't really keep an exact score (since so much is missed by an given judge at any given time) but rather at the end just decided who they got the best impression of during the fight (who they thought dominated). This could also lead to more exciting matches (instead of standing and bouncing). Of course, this could easily lead to a lot of bias, so I don't know... maybe somehow a mix of both??? Don't know how to exactly... just thoughts for a "perfect" tournament.

Also, and this would be be hard (although do-able), I would want every competitor in the same division to do the same form. I know there are still slight differences between schools even for the same form, but if everyone in one division was at least doing the same (or similar) techniques I think judges would be able to look at the true merit of the competitor, rather than just comparing different forms. I think it would make forms competition more fair (and more fun) for both the competitors and the officials.

Please let me know once you get this going Terry, I would love to be involved if I could.

 

[Adept]

Competition rules:

- The Ten-Point-Must system is to be used (the same system used for Boxing)

- The following are considered fouls:
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
11. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
12. Grabbing the clavicle.
13. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
14. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
16. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
17. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
18. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
19. Spitting at an opponent.
20. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
21. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
22. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
23. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
24. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
25. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
26. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
27. Interference by the corner.
28. Throwing in the towel during competition.

- All rounds are to be three minutes duration, with no stoppage unless caused by injury or stopped by the referee.


Thats pretty much it, really. I don't believe in making rules for individual studios to follow, although I would stipulate that a healthy focus on self defence is maintained.

 

[zDom]

Well, here's my 2 cents:

It's not so much the RULES that are porked with WTF, it's the OFFICIATING.

My observations and speculation lead me to believe that,

because most WTF-oriented schools don't emphasize hand techniques and certain kicks such as sidekick, that the competitors they see around THEIR dojangs don't have any power in their hand strikes and sidekicks, for example.

They THEN officiate based on assumptions made by their experience: i.e., they don't SCORE punches to the body or for sidekicks, even if an opponent is getting PUMMELED by them!

Likewise, they give a lot of points for the quick "tappity tap" arc/roundhouse kicks.

The rules are all in place: trembling shock = point! They just don't SCORE that way!

They have created this WTF culture (no hand striking ability, no sidekick ability, no front kick ability, etc.,) and refuse to acknowledge taekwondo from outside this culture.

Self-fulfilling expectations at its worst.

As for the above list of rules: why no strikes to the back of the head?


As for allowing hand strikes to the head: while I think makes for a better fight in many situations, I think the overall result would be BAD. The emphasis is supposed to be on kicking, and allowing strikes to the head would eventually lead to, I believe, people getting lazy and relying on head punches or even unskilled kickers getting into the mix by virtue of their hand striking (to the head) ability.

Just look at what has happened to professional kickboxing, in many cases: people who couldn't cut it in the boxing ring learn a couple sloppy kicks, throw the minimum required to not draw a foul, and then BOX for the rest of the fight!

IMO, just about any Joe on the street can step into a ring and swing at someone's head, while it takes years to develop skillful kicking.

On the OTHER hand, maybe they COULD add in hand striking to the head in this manner: only allow strikes to the headgear: no face-mask punches.

This would mean developing martial art strikes such as ridgehands, backfists, hammer fists as opposed to the more boxing-style jabs, crosses and uppercuts.

This would also take bloody nose/face cuts out of the mix while requiring the fighters to watch out for their heads.

Just an idea off the top of my head...

The only other change I would like to see is rewarding jump, spinning and jump spinning kicks so it is worth it to competitors to spend the extra energy required to use these techniques (I hear this idea has already been/is being considered)

 

[Laurentkd]

zDom, I think you are right on.

The one thing I hate about being a TKDist is having to explain to people that what sport sparring they see on tv (the couple of times it has been on) is not really what REAL TKD is. The lack of kicks other than roundhouse, and the ease at which roundhouse is awarded points is a major problem, IMO.

I also like your idea of hands to head, with no actual punches to the face. When I was younger I would compete is some AAU tournaments, and they allowed backfists to the head. I liked the idea, except for the fact that any little tap would score a point. If you allowed face contact only to the portion protected by the helmet (which makes the most sense to me for kicks as well) punches would basically be non-exsitant and the other strikes you mentioned could have some pretty good power behind them so that to score a point you really have to make some decent contact without too much risk of injury.

 

[matt.m]

I think it is a double edged sword. I know the rules are in place and I see that they are not being adhered to as they should....I see TKD as a whole being very self serving by a few and that is bad.

Since TKD is now an olympic sport then I see things going to "Pretty, quick and easy route." Look at olympic boxing vs. pro boxing. The only similarity they have is that two people are wearing gloves.

I see this in comparing self defense tae kwon do and olympic tae kwon do.

Just my .02

 

[exile]

I think it is a double edged sword. I know the rules are in place and I see that they are not being adhered to as they should....I see TKD as a whole being very self serving by a few and that is bad.

Since TKD is now an olympic sport then I see things going to "Pretty, quick and easy route." Look at olympic boxing vs. pro boxing. The only similarity they have is that two people are wearing gloves.

I see this in comparing self defense tae kwon do and olympic tae kwon do.

Just my .02

Total agreement here, Matt.

They have created this WTF culture (no hand striking ability, no sidekick ability, no front kick ability, etc.,) and refuse to acknowledge taekwondo from outside this culture... maybe they COULD add in hand striking to the head in this manner: only allow strikes to the headgear: no face-mask punches.

This would mean developing martial art strikes such as ridgehands, backfists, hammer fists as opposed to the more boxing-style jabs, crosses and uppercuts.

Again, complete agreement here. I look at WTF sparring matches and all I can think of is a bunch of Tyrannosaurus rex wannabees: powerful legs, puny arms. We all know that the techs recorded in the hyungs emphasize hand strikes, deflections and locks, with kicks in a distinct minority. Clearly the hyungs are about CQ/H2H defense against untrained but violent attackers, while tournaments are about trained skills vs. trained skills under protected conditions. But what I'm reading from you guys, from Lauren's post, and from Adept's too (given that his rules would admit a lot of what I think should be admitted) is that the pendulum has swung too far in a certain direction, and maybe it's time to come back toward the center. If the sport deviates excessively from its self-defense roots, it's going to wind up just a kind of round house tag played with the instep. Some people would probably say we're already at that point...

 

[Laurentkd]

.... is that the pendulum has swung too far in a certain direction, and maybe it's time to come back toward the center. If the sport deviates excessively from its self-defense roots, it's going to wind up just a kind of round house tag played with the instep. Some people would probably say we're already at that point...

I think this is it exactly Exile. Of course tournament sparring will never be the same as self-defense, nor should it be (it is just a sport after all, and the competitors should have an expectation of safety). But I feel the pendulum has swung to far, as you said, and hopefully it will swing back. However, I do think this swing back will happen in the small local tournaments long before we see any change at the Olympic (and even national) level. It seems to me that the WTF is soley focused on numbers (both money and just the general popluarity of the sport). I think this is important, and of course Olympic TKD is a minute part of TKD in general. However, it is only look the majority of the population gets of TKD and just want it to be something we can still be proud of.
I know the WTF has been trying to implement some changes. I have heard talks about making punches score points (which is funny because as far as I know the rules have always allowed punch with "trembling shock" to score, and talk about additional points for spinning or jumping kicks. Has anyone else heard more about this, or seen anything like this in action?

 

[Adept]

As for the above list of rules: why no strikes to the back of the head?

It's too easy to inflict permanent spinal damage.

As for allowing hand strikes to the head: while I think makes for a better fight in many situations, I think the overall result would be BAD. The emphasis is supposed to be on kicking, and allowing strikes to the head would eventually lead to, I believe, people getting lazy and relying on head punches

If head punches are a more effective way of controlling the fight, then they should become more prevalent.

This would mean developing martial art strikes such as ridgehands, backfists, hammer fists as opposed to the more boxing-style jabs, crosses and uppercuts.

Why attempt to limit the techniques via the rules?