Musashi's Style

[Leomhann]

Has anyone ever tried the twin sword style? If so, did you try it with a dai-katana and wakizashi, twin dai-katana, twin wakizashi?

Personally I've attempted it with twin dai-katana. Since there is no school anywhere near that teaches this, I've had to free lance and wing it based on his writings. Open for discussion/thoughts.

 

[kaizasosei]

here's the thread from yesterday.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1053497#post1053497

i personally used to fool around with various combinations of shortsword/katana- as well as other combos.

however, it is only since around 6 years since that i have discovered more systematic style that involves working with twosworded kamae or positions, timing and techniques.

see the thread above.

ive been searching youtube for good twosworded moves or examples...
no luck.. there is practically nothing. yesterday i found one that was ok, but didnt cut it.

best to check out 'the two swords of aikido' from Saotomesensei.


i saw some guy on youtube flailing around two swords sortof like batons or something...terrible. i hate critisizing but it was nothing close to the intricate system that i discovered with the help of better material such as the above video.
j

 

[Langenschwert]

Has anyone ever tried the twin sword style?

Yes. I attended the Calgary HNIR seminar by Menkyo Colin Watkin last August. Cool stuff, wish I had the scheduling to join the sudy group here, but they train the same time I teach German Longsword and Messer.

Anywho, using two equal-length long swords together is seldom a good idea. The Europeans would sometimes use two rapiers (called "case of rapiers"). In the manuals detailing that style, it often starts out something like "oh, and about case of rapiers: Don't do it, it's far too difficult. Oh, you want to do it anyway? OK, here's how..." In a duelling situation, it's ok. But in my view, having two different lengths of weapons is far more practical, such as rapier and dagger, or sword and buckler, or sword and short sword (of whatever culture). Even axe and short sword is doable. The reason being, once the opponent has closed in, you're in touble if you don't have a shorter range weapon in the off hand. Against a dual-weilding swordsman, sword and shield/buckler combinations are very effective. In short, to use two long weapons together, you've gotta be a badass, accoring to the masters.

Go Rin No Sho is really hard to interpret without the aid of someone who really knows it, like the HNIR guys, obviously.

Your best bet is to find a legitimate JSA school that teaches twin sword technique, even if you have to travel a long way. Or go to seminars. Otherwise you're spending a lot of time re-inventing the wheel and wasting time that could have been spent doing things more effectively.

Barring that, find any other legitimate sword school (assuming you haven't already) and learn the principles of swordsmanship. It's the same principles no matter what culture it comes from... just the particulars change.

Good luck,

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[pgsmith]

Just want to expand a little on Mark's very informative post as it sounds like neither of the two original posters are very fluent in the Japanese sword arts. HNIR stands for Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu, which is the school of swordsmanship founded by Musashi and currently run by the 10th generation headmaster Imai Masayuki. More information about HNIR can be found on Hyakutake Colin Watkin's web site ... http://www.hyoho.com/Hyoho1.html
Mark also advised to learn the principles of swordsmanship first. That is an excellent piece of advice that many people try and ignore by "teaching themselves". If you do not have a legitimate instructor that is more advanced than you, you've no way of knowing if what you are "learning" is correct, or total bunk. It's amazing how similar they can seem to someone without training, but how glaringly obvious the difference to the experienced.

 

[kaizasosei]

having two equal large swords is good for developing feelings of symetry of movement, equal strength as well as perfecting technique evenly.

the daisho, or bigsmall, refering to katana and wakizashi are a very deep part of japanese culture that have more to do with just cutting.

there are more secrets of symetry contained within the principle of bigsmall not necessarily pertaining exclusively to swordsmanship, however the sword itself is an unparalleled trainer of body and mind.

as pointed out, having a dagger or shortsword or a sheild and sword, are very practical for combat purposes. i agree that having two swords may be cumbersome and more than necessary to cut effectively. although the techniques and principles remain very similar.

 

[kaizasosei]

sorry doubling
correction

the daisho, or bigsmall, refering to katana and wakizashi are a very deep part of japanese culture that has more to it than just cutting.

 

[pgsmith]

the daisho, or bigsmall, refering to katana and wakizashi are a very deep part of japanese culture that has more to it than just cutting.

A few corrections for the benefit of others that may be reading this thread ... Daisho refers to the wearing of two swords, an indoor and an outdoor sword. The indoor sword was usually a wakizashi (between one and two shaku, 12 to 24 inches, in length) but was frequently a tanto (less than one shaku).
The only deep part of Japanese culture that the daisho represents is that they were the badge of office of the ruling samurai class for a good part of their existence. Only the samurai class were allowed to wear two swords.

 

[Cirdan]

The Katori Shinto Ryu teaches two sword fighting called Ryoto jutsu. I have never seen it practiced with two swords of equal length however.

Small find on youtube:

By the way I have heard that "practicing the style of two swords" in japanese can mean playing for both teams if you catch my drift... :uhyeah:

 

[kaizasosei]

By the way I have heard that "practicing the style of two swords" in japanese can mean playing for both teams if you catch my drift... :uhyeah:

ah, i see, sortof like the expression- 'happo bijin' 'an eight direction beautiful person' beautiful from all eight sides...

 

[Masshiro]

as most of us know musashi was a great swordsman and posibly perfect with the Niten-Kenjutsu style he used. but you need to remember that most of his battles only lasted 2 seconds. the forms for that style look more like one steps from other martial arts. the only way to truly be good is to think of those swords as an extention of your own arms.

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Personally I've attempted it with twin dai-katana. Since there is no school anywhere near that teaches this, I've had to free lance and wing it based on his writings. Open for discussion/thoughts.

Katana and wakisashi for me or twin wakisazshi. Damn you must be strong to be able to duel wield dai-katana.

 

[Sukerkin]

Strong ... and dead the first time he went up against a swordsman who didn't get his training from manga .

I know that my viewpoint is going to be guided by my art but I also train alongside the students of a katori school. They use katana and wakizashi together for some of their forms but mostly it is either one or the other. The major reason for that is that it is very hard to successfully control two blades at the same time.

For myself, I'm far more comfortable and effective using 'just' the katana as my attention is not needlessly divided by two weapons.

 

[Chris Parker]

The other reason to use two different sized weapons is that each covers the area left by the other. In other words, the daito is a long-reach bladed weapon, but loses manouverability in close. The shoto is great in close, but doesn't have the reach of the daito. So using both enables you to change distance, angle, reach, speed etc. at a rate that is not easy for an opponent to defend against. Possible, but not easy.

There is the skill of Nito Yaburi, though, which is the ability to defend against two swords when armed with only one (typically a daito). This skill relys on being able to maintain your distance, and to be able to seperate or isolate one weapon to deal with it first, then the second, and finally to finish.

 

[Langenschwert]

I know that my viewpoint is going to be guided by my art but I also train alongside the students of a katori school.

You're a lucky man. Finding TSKSR is not easy at all. Soak up all you can.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Strong ... and dead the first time he went up against a swordsman who didn't get his training from manga .

Or light saber duels. Though light saber blades, being coherent energy would probably be a lot lighter.
:jediduel:

The other reason to use two different sized weapons is that each covers the area left by the other. In other words, the daito is a long-reach bladed weapon, but loses manouverability in close. The shoto is great in close, but doesn't have the reach of the daito. So using both enables you to change distance, angle, reach, speed etc. at a rate that is not easy for an opponent to defend against. Possible, but not easy.

My thoughts exactly and the only reason I'd bother training katana and wakisashi. As for duel-wakisashi, I just have a fetish for short swords and knives (its genetic). %-}

 

[ScottUK]

I think people forget there there is a lot more kenjutsu in Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu than just the nito-seiho.

 

[kaizasosei]

Thems fighting world

Katana and wakisashi for me or twin wakisazshi. Damn you must be strong to be able to duel wield dai-katana.

yeah, a fair bit of forarm and grip strength is needed. However, as you go along you start to use better and better body dynamics. If you practice for longer periods of time as well, it will force you to use body movements rather than pure strength alone. Pure muscle strength is not nearly as powerful as using the whole body, especially after a couple of hours going at it.

Try holding the swords at the very bottom of the handles to spice things up even more.



j

 

[pgsmith]

Try holding the swords at the very bottom of the handles to spice things up even more.

If you really want to make things harder, try learning a koryu sword art from a legitimate instructor. Much, much harder than just about anything that you could think up to try at home.

 

[kaizasosei]

hmmm, i wonder...

I do learn from all over so it's not like there's too much i don't have access to other than the luxury of arduous and complete training. Have to say, I'm quite satisfied in my ways. I do think it would be great to learn with all the koryu tradition to make it even more fullfilling, but the tempering of the self and the learning is the same for anyone on his way.

koryu can also mean tiger and dragon.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yes, "ko ryu" can be written in a way that means "tiger (and) dragon", but I believe you realise that that is not what pgsmith was refering to. And, no, no matter how much reference material you have, no matter how much self-training you have, no matter how much personal insight you have, if you want the old arts you have to train the old arts. Legitimately.

I have many reference books on many old systems, but would not consider myself a practitioner of those arts (even when my reference books include all the technical work of a particular art, because the technical side is just a beginning). As stated, "Musashi's style" (Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu) is much more than just two sword techniques. In fact, the two sword kata set is the shortest of each of the three sets of kenjutsu kata within the school. For the record, they include a 12 kata set for the long sword, a 7 kata set for the short sword against long sword, and a 5 kata set for two swords against a long sword.

But the essence of Musashi's approach to swordsmanship (evident is you read the Go Rin No Sho) is not the use of two swords at once, instead it is on the ability to wield any item well and independant of itself. Two swords is merely one application of the work. In fact, the book deals with long swords, short swords, two swords, swords from other arts, spears, naginata, and other weapons, with the only technical points (techniques) focusing on long sword against long sword (the Water Book). As stated, I have never heard of anyone using two long swords together, however your idea would be a good one for conditioning the wrists and forearms, just not greatly practical.

Oh, and back on Tiger and Dragon, if we're going to use that reference, we might as well use it with some context. The use of Tiger and Dragon is an implication of completeness in many ways, with the Tiger being Lord of the ground, aggressive, focused on striking and leaping forward, and the Dragon being the Lord of the air, focusing on grabbing (often depicted holding ball or pearl), present in the moment at all times. So to say that "koryu" can mean "Tiger and Dragon", to me, says that to understand Koryu you need to experience the inside and outside (all aspects) of the art in question, and you just don't get that from books, videos, dvds, or even forums. You get it from learning the Koryu art from a recognised teacher.