More Tracy Forms - where did they come from?

[Flying Crane]

I have seen on Tracys website that they list a lot more forms than EPAK has, stuff that looks like it was adapted from various Chinese arts. These include Tam Tui, some Shaolin sets, spear, a Tai Chi set, etc. Does anyone know the story behind any of these? How were they brought into the system?

 

[Flying Crane]

Well as it turns out, Tracys have posted some information on this on their website. It is found here: http://www.tracyskarate.com/History/history_and_organs_of_all_kenpo_.htm

 

[KenpoDave]

Well as it turns out, Tracys have posted some information on this on their website. It is found here: http://www.tracyskarate.com/History/history_and_organs_of_all_kenpo_.htm

That page gives a general overview. Do you have questions on any specific forms and their origins? I might know, or it might prompt some research on my part. Either way, somebody learns something!

 

[Flying Crane]

That page gives a general overview. Do you have questions on any specific forms and their origins? I might know, or it might prompt some research on my part. Either way, somebody learns something!

Nothing specific, just a general curiosity about it. Wondering with whom they trained and for how long, to learn this material and bring it into the system, and what the motivation for doing it was. Did they just have interests in other things, and so brought in what they learned, or did they do it from a perception that this stuff was needed to fill a gap in the kenpo?

 

[KenpoDave]

Nothing specific, just a general curiosity about it. Wondering with whom they trained and for how long, to learn this material and bring it into the system, and what the motivation for doing it was. Did they just have interests in other things, and so brought in what they learned, or did they do it from a perception that this stuff was needed to fill a gap in the kenpo?

According to Mr. Tracy, Ed Parker had him study weapons forms to fill a perceived gap in kenpo. Parker at some point realized that weapons were not actually a part of kenpo, and moved more into designing his own weapons sets. Mr. Tracy had already put in years of research and liked them, so he continued.

He is one of two men in the US given permission by the deceased system head to teach Bok Fu (White Tiger Staff). I believe that Richard Lee (bok fu kenpo) is the other. If my memory is correct, our first two staff sets, Darkroom Staff and Skylight Staff, are Al Tracy creations based on some of the 18 forms of that style. There is a White Tiger Staff form on one of the videos, but not required for the system. He also learned the Wong Family Shaolin Hand Set from a man in Chinatown, San Francisco, who claimed it was the major form of his family's art.

 

[Flying Crane]

According to Mr. Tracy, Ed Parker had him study weapons forms to fill a perceived gap in kenpo. Parker at some point realized that weapons were not actually a part of kenpo, and moved more into designing his own weapons sets. Mr. Tracy had already put in years of research and liked them, so he continued.

He is one of two men in the US given permission by the deceased system head to teach Bok Fu (White Tiger Staff). I believe that Richard Lee (bok fu kenpo) is the other. If my memory is correct, our first two staff sets, Darkroom Staff and Skylight Staff, are Al Tracy creations based on some of the 18 forms of that style. There is a White Tiger Staff form on one of the videos, but not required for the system. He also learned the Wong Family Shaolin Hand Set from a man in Chinatown, San Francisco, who claimed it was the major form of his family's art.

Thanks, Dave.

I always appreciate the historical context of things, and I had sort of been wondering about these things since I first noticed them on Tracys website.

I have spent the last 8 or 9 years studying Chinese arts here in San Francisco, and have acquired a fair bit of material (some I do better than others), so I know how that goes. When you are always curious in what's out there, you suddenly end up with a lot of things on your plate.

 

[KenpoDave]

Thanks, Dave.

I always appreciate the historical context of things, and I had sort of been wondering about these things since I first noticed them on Tracys website.

I have spent the last 8 or 9 years studying Chinese arts here in San Francisco, and have acquired a fair bit of material (some I do better than others), so I know how that goes. When you are always curious in what's out there, you suddenly end up with a lot of things on your plate.

I certainly know that feeling.

 

[crash2806]

I believe they were brought in by James Woo and are mostly from Wing Chun and Hung Gar kung fu.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Are either of those two staff sets (Darkroom and Skylight) the same as the EPAK staff set?

 

[Flying Crane]

Are either of those two staff sets (Darkroom and Skylight) the same as the EPAK staff set?

What I learned as "#1 Staff Set" is very close to the one taught in EPAK, close enought that I believe it is the same. Whether or not that is also known as Darkroom or Skylight staff, I don't know. I never knew those names until I wandered onto Tracys website.

 

[Brian Jones]

No they are three different forms.

Brian Jones

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I believe they were brought in by James Woo and are mostly from Wing Chun and Hung Gar kung fu.

Nonsense. James Wing Woo was not a Wing Chun man.

 

[KenpoDave]

Nonsense. James Wing Woo was not a Wing Chun man.

I have heard that Wing Woo was both a hung gar practitioner and a 5 Families practitioner.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have heard that Wing Woo was both a hung gar practitioner and a 5 Families practitioner.

That is true, but not complete, he was experienced in a number of Chinese martial arts and a skilled boxer. Sifu Woo had a vast knowledge and had probably forgotten more about martial arts than I will ever know.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have heard that Wing Woo was both a hung gar practitioner and a 5 Families practitioner.

Where did you hear of him? An entire sect of Kenpo knows nothing of him, and yet some refer to him as a GM which amused him.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Here are some old pics from way back.

 

[KenpoDave]

Where did you hear of him? An entire sect of Kenpo knows nothing of him, and yet some refer to him as a GM which amused him.

Al Tracy learned Book Set from him, Michael Chong trained with him and took Ted Sumner to meet him a few times. Gary Gione, Matt Chalmers and Roy Abramowitz are Tracy people that also trained with James Ibrao and went with Ibrao to train with Woo several times.

 

[KenpoDave]

Here are some old pics from way back.

Where would one pick up a copy of The Writings… book? Is it similar to his book, “Sifu?”

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Al Tracy learned Book Set from him, Michael Chong trained with him and took Ted Sumner to meet him a few times. Gary Gione, Matt Chalmers and Roy Abramowitz are Tracy people that also trained with James Ibrao and went with Ibrao to train with Woo several times.

I’m curious what your book set looks like. Is it the same as Sifu Ibrao? Bun gi Kuen

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Where would one pick up a copy of The Writings… book? Is it similar to his book, “Sifu?”

No the writings is a compilation of Sifu Woos private notes and “writings“ is what we decided to call it. It is not available, it’s something we made and only a few copies exist. The Sifu book is just short cursory. A lot of the content in Secrets of Chinese karate is actually Sifu Woo and not E.P.