More or less Korean terminology?

andyjeffries

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The full technique name for twin knifehand in Korean is Kodeureo Yangsonnal Momtong Bakkat Makki - the koreans we have with us tell me that it's not a redundancy, but we are struggling to get to the definition of the 'Yang' part.

The Kukkiwon website doesn't seem to show any usage of "yang", but they do shown quite a few "hansonnal" blocks. World Culture Taekwondo Kukkiwon will make it That said, it is a reasonable term - yang means "both" in this context, so they're saying "Guarding both-knifehand middle outward block".

Kukkiwon terminology was standardised in recent years to remove unnecessary words, so they generally don't specify momtong (except for momtong makki) in every body section block, instead only emphasising low or high if it isn't a body block, they don't specify outer forearm or outward-direction (bakkat) if it's obvious (and in a knifehand block you aren't blocking with the forearm but the knife-edge of the hand).

I don't have my Kukkiwon textbook or Master Instructor Course book with me, but Grandmaster Ikpil Kang just uses "sonnal makki" (in both English and Korean) in his book.

I've just asked two friends - one is an ex-Kukkiwon Demonstration Team member (he left the team about 3 years ago). He said they have always just called it "sonnal makki". He said that it's either called that or "geodeureo sonnal makki", depending on the instructor (so I guess they just used the short less specific form, because generally they all knew what they were supposed to be doing).

The other friend is a current member of the Kukkiwon Education Committee, he said it used to be called "sonnal makki", then they changed it about one year ago to the current term which is "doosonnal geodeureo bakkat makki" (two knifehand guarding outward block). He said most people haven't changed yet though.

Anyway, hope that adds something to the conversation....
 

Gnarlie

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The Kukkiwon website doesn't seem to show any usage of "yang", but they do shown quite a few "hansonnal" blocks. World Culture Taekwondo Kukkiwon will make it That said, it is a reasonable term - yang means "both" in this context, so they're saying "Guarding both-knifehand middle outward block".

Kukkiwon terminology was standardised in recent years to remove unnecessary words, so they generally don't specify momtong (except for momtong makki) in every body section block, instead only emphasising low or high if it isn't a body block, they don't specify outer forearm or outward-direction (bakkat) if it's obvious (and in a knifehand block you aren't blocking with the forearm but the knife-edge of the hand).

I don't have my Kukkiwon textbook or Master Instructor Course book with me, but Grandmaster Ikpil Kang just uses "sonnal makki" (in both English and Korean) in his book.

I've just asked two friends - one is an ex-Kukkiwon Demonstration Team member (he left the team about 3 years ago). He said they have always just called it "sonnal makki". He said that it's either called that or "geodeureo sonnal makki", depending on the instructor (so I guess they just used the short less specific form, because generally they all knew what they were supposed to be doing).

The other friend is a current member of the Kukkiwon Education Committee, he said it used to be called "sonnal makki", then they changed it about one year ago to the current term which is "doosonnal geodeureo bakkat makki" (two knifehand guarding outward block). He said most people haven't changed yet though.

Anyway, hope that adds something to the conversation....

Indeed it does, thank you.

I agree that what's on the KKW website and in the textbook is often simpler, but there's not much consistency between instructors, even Korean ones.

Not everyone is using 'Naeryo Makki' and 'Ollyo Makki' yet, for example, and there is a lot of variation in what to call a dollyo chagi in each country. In the UK, that seems to mean head height, but here in DE it can be any height, and the term 'paltung' is often used for the midsection kick that we called bitchagi in the UK.

This is why I tend to stick with the KKW terms, but I try to be aware of the alternatives too.
 

Earl Weiss

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Does anyone use Sa Bum Nim more often than Mr./Ms./Master in reference to their instructor? How about using terms like Kyo Sa Nim or Gyeo Kyo Nim for assistant instructors? Who uses these in their school?

In referring to instructors the English Title is used. Korean typicaly only but always used only for the opening and closing ceremonies.

Boo Sa Bum - Assistant Instructor
Sa Bum - Instructor
Sa Hyung - Master Instructor
Sa Sung - Grandmaster Instructor
Chong Shee Ja - Founder Used as salutation for General Choi in later years. Apparently also used by Won Kuk Lee.
 

TrueJim

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Bareun Bal is fast foot, yes, meaning step kick. I bet they use Narae Chagi for switch kicks too...

Switch Kick? They use "Narae Chagi" for a Double Roundhouse (where the first kick is a feint). Is that what you're calling a Switch Kick? I think I read once that Narae means "wings"? I guess the idea is that both legs in the air is supposed to make it look like wings.
 

Gnarlie

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Switch Kick? They use "Narae Chagi" for a Double Roundhouse (where the first kick is a feint). Is that what you're calling a Switch Kick? I think I read once that Narae means "wings"? I guess the idea is that both legs in the air is supposed to make it look like wings.
That's the one!
 

TrueJim

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And another weird thing! At our school they romanize Ee (2) as Yi. Craziness man!

As an aside, we recently put our curriculum online. (I was the video editor...the performers are a couple of previous K-Tigers.) Here it is in case anybody is curious: Majest Martial Arts - YouTube

Here's what the kicking combinations look like for our color-belts (I diagrammed these in my Poomsae Designer software): Image - ExampleKickingCombinations.png - Taekwondo Wiki
1021

That shows the names we use for most of our kicks. During drills we're required to call out the Korean names as we kick, but the instructors always use both terms (English and Korean) when teaching, one term right after the other, to make sure we know both names.
 

WaterGal

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I don't have my Kukkiwon textbook or Master Instructor Course book with me, but Grandmaster Ikpil Kang just uses "sonnal makki" (in both English and Korean) in his book.

Just checked, and they have the double/twin knifehand listed as "sonnal makki" and single knife hand as "hansonnal makki".
 

TrueJim

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(Referring to a Double Roundhouse as a Switch Kick...)

That's the one!

Hey, let me ask another question: at a recent test we had to do a Double Roundhouse (in which, again, presumably the first kick is a feint), but...we had to break two thin boards. Like, the feint had to be hard enough to snap the first thin board before executing the second (real) Roundhouse on another thin board. I actually found that surprisingly tricky to do (presumably because I'm fat, old, and slow). But more to the point, it struck me as odd to require a board-break on the feint. Do any of you guys do that at your schools? Require a board-break on the feint? I mean, it certainly requires that you sell the feint!

By the way, I Googled a bit and it seems most people use the term Switch Kick to refer to any double-combination where the first kick is a feint? So that's the definition I added to the wiki, with the Double Roundhouse being cited as an example. (Always learning.)
 

Gnarlie

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(Referring to a Double Roundhouse as a Switch Kick...)



Hey, let me ask another question: at a recent test we had to do a Double Roundhouse (in which, again, presumably the first kick is a feint), but...we had to break two thin boards. Like, the feint had to be hard enough to snap the first thin board before executing the second (real) Roundhouse on another thin board. I actually found that surprisingly tricky to do (presumably because I'm fat, old, and slow). But more to the point, it struck me as odd to require a board-break on the feint. Do any of you guys do that at your schools?

Yes, but when we do, we refer to it as a 'doppel dollyo' or double turning kick i.e. both kicks are full kicks but they only turn in to 45 degrees or a little more. The feint is only a feint if there happens to be no target, otherwise it is a kick when the opportunity presents itself.
Require a board-break on the feint? I mean, it certainly requires that you sell the feint!

It does, and also encourages the student to acquire the hip switch motion control required to decide which of the kicks to commit to.

By the way, I Googled a bit and it seems most people use the term Switch Kick to refer to any double-combination where the first kick is a feint? So that's the definition I added to the wiki, with the Double Roundhouse being cited as an example. (Always learning.)

Yes, any kick where a switch motion of the hips is used as the mechnical principle. Dollyo to Bandae Dollyo would also apply, if only one foot touches the floor at a time. Typically we mean chain dollyos though.

We don't really use the term roundhouse in Europe or the UK, at least not in TKD (maybe in MMA), that seems to be an American term. I remember one of our Korean visitors asking me what it meant and why it was a round house!
 

TrueJim

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It does, and also encourages the student to acquire the hip switch motion control required to decide which of the kicks to commit to...

They place a big emphasis on turning over the hip at our school, for both kicks. I'm sure you know, a lot of kids especially try to turn the Double Roundhouse into Double Front Kicks instead. :) Our instructors want to see the hip turn over on the first kick, and then the other way on the second kick, even if you have to sacrifice height to do it. Interestingly, I've read articles that suggest not turning over the hip so much for the Double Roundhouse...but that would not fly at our school.
 

Gnarlie

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They place a big emphasis on turning over the hip at our school, for both kicks. I'm sure you know, a lot of kids especially try to turn the Double Roundhouse into Double Front Kicks instead. :) Our instructors want to see the hip turn over on the first kick, and then the other way on the second kick, even if you have to sacrifice height to do it. Interestingly, I've read articles that suggest not turning over the hip so much for the Double Roundhouse...but that would not fly at our school.
Ours either. I think the point is to learn to get power in with the hip first, then you can roll back the power and find the best compromise of power versus speed and deceptiveness for each situation. Putting boards in front of people forces them to confront the common weakness with this combo which is, as you say, two apchagis with no hip.
 

Earl Weiss

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AFAIAC for many, learning a language presents difficulties. Further, there is no "Intuitive Connection" for non Korean speakers between terms like "Sonkal" and Knifehand, or "Maki" and Block.
I think this was one of the brilliant ideas by General Choi which included publications in the native language using intuitive names, and developing instructors and organizations from the people of each country limiting control by Korean Seniors. (Admittedly some of this was born of neccessity.)
 

Drakanyst

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ah heck. kukkiwon standardizing their terms is nice- my old textbook has all of their fun twenty mile long specific names. here at my school in korea they keep terms as simple as possible, especially for the kids. while i've heard a bunch of variations between terms, they all have the same root. it just depends on how in detail the instructor wants to be with the term.

some of my classes however, are english immersion. the students learn all of the english terms for techniques and commands. we do half of the classes in korean, half in english.

in america, it is a part of our testing cycle to learn your form's new terms in korean. you have to identify these in order to pass to your next gup. greetings, numbers, kicks, blocks- everything is in korean aside from the explanations for the most part. our school follows the "master, mr., mrs., ms., etc" line for referring to other students and instructors- however the korean terms are slowly being integrated into normal school communication.
 

Buka

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Billy Blanks opened a Tae-kwon-do school in Japan a couple years ago. I can only imagine what terminology is being used there. I'll bet it's fun, though.
 

Manny

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Karate folks tend to use Japanese terms for instructors (sempai, sensei, shihan etc.) and Judo folks tend to use Japanese terms nearly exclusively for techniques. We TKDoan seem to be all over the maps as far as the amount of Korean terms that we use. Some Sa Bum or Yup Chagi more than others, but very few (in my experience) will use Sa Bum Nim, or Kyo Sa Nim as if it's the person's given name (as Karate folks seem to lean toward in greater numbers).

Why do you think that is? How much Korean do you use in class & how often? Is your master referred to as Sa Bum Nim as if it's their given name, or is it more often by Mr/Ms./Master, etc.? How much technique terminology is used in your dojang?

I use korena words and comands in the classes I teach, however the owner of the dojang not is that way, I eman she uses spanish comands and sometimes she uses korean words, I must confes is a kidie sporty dojang. I was taught the old way and I remain this way no matter what, it seems the comercial dojangs tend to be softher in this respect.

El Manny
 

oftheherd1

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My teacher in TKD, in the USA, did use some Korean terms, but mostly for things like ready, attention, begin. My Hapkido teacher in Korea was about the same; Korean words for attention, ready, meditate, breathing. All techniques had English names.

@ Dirty Dog - doesn't sudo mean knife hand?
 

reeskm

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sudo should be knife hand, or open hand
sang sudo mahkkee is a double knife hand block.
These terms are often used in TangSooDo. I'm pretty sure the fact that they use the same or simlar Hanja to the Japanese Kanji for the same technique in Karate was the reason why you TKDers use new terminology that was developed by the Kukiwan or KTA in order to distance yourself from the "older" names in Korean.

I want to add, that when addressing seniors, it's my belief that the military history of Korea had a huge influence here. This is why there is more "Sir/Ma'am" used in Korean arts when compared to Karate and Japanese arts, where "Shihan/Sensei/Sempai" is more common.
  • We usually refer to seniors in class as "Mr. or Mrs [Surname]" if they are black belts, and "Sir/Ma'am" without a surname.
  • For masters, we would say "Master [Name}" or "Sir/Ma'am" without a surname.
  • For all class commands and formal situations (writing an email, a letter, on the phone) we often say "Kyo Sah Nim [surname}" or "Sah Bom Nim [Surname]".

To keep things interestings, keep in mind the Hanja/Kanji for:
  • KyoSah is identical to the Japanese KyoShi
  • SahBom is identical to the Japanese ShiHan or HanShi (reversed Kanji)
  • note how both KyoSah/SahBom share the same Hanja: "Sah". The japanese equivalents do as well. You can see here the similarity of the Japanese and Korean languages. There are patterns and the syllables have similarities.
  • I have not seen an equivalent to the Japanese "Renshi" used in Korean.
  • These three are curiously all official ranks in the Butokukai (Kyoto, JP)
As a friend and "brother" to you TKDers and a fellow Korean stylist, I hope I have added to the debate! I'm sure some of you who have issues with Japan's past, will like me, also see the similarities and cultural sharing here to promote goodwill between nations.
 

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