mma as self defense

[bigfootsquatch]

I hear from a lot of "traditionalists" that MMA is not suited for self defense, but competition....yet MMA guys are generally(though not always) in better shape, and while they may not be a "master of any one style" many are still masters in their own right. So here is to you guys, a TMA giving you MMA guys a thumb up. The proof is in the pudding, and you guys make some damn good pudding!

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I like mine with chocolate.

 

[cuts and bruises]

Being an FMA guy, I must disagree. (Waiting for the Universal cry of outrage...)

While it is entertaining to watch (and I do with a near-religious fervor!!), it is my contention that ANY fight sport is just that, a sport. Prize fighters stop short of delivering a blow to the head/throat/eyes that would kill or cripple in a self-defense situation.

I don't care what anyone says... you DO fight like you train. If you're training for combat you will train with the destruction of your enemy in mind (see USMC boot camp). If you are training for a tournament you will NEVER train the killing/crippling strikes that are the bread and butter of a combat fighter.

MMA is better than nothing when it comes to self-defense, but too many folks train MMA with a mind for 3, 5 minute rounds, and forget that in the dark alley there is no referee, no points deducted for low blows and no disqualification for eye-gouges and bites to the face!

I will take NOTHING away from the UFC/WEC/MMA crowd. Pound for pound, they are some of the toughest humans on the planet! And I certainly wouldn't want to fight any one of them on his terms! But we all need to remember that these guys are PRO's!

I think for the rest of us unwashed masses, relying on sport fighting for self-defense is foolish and teaching a combat sport as self-defense is irresponsible.

 

[K831]

Being an FMA guy, I must disagree. (Waiting for the Universal cry of outrage...)

While it is entertaining to watch (and I do with a near-religious fervor!!), it is my contention that ANY fight sport is just that, a sport. Prize fighters stop short of delivering a blow to the head/throat/eyes that would kill or cripple in a self-defense situation.

I don't care what anyone says... you DO fight like you train. If you're training for combat you will train with the destruction of your enemy in mind (see USMC boot camp). If you are training for a tournament you will NEVER train the killing/crippling strikes that are the bread and butter of a combat fighter.

MMA is better than nothing when it comes to self-defense, but too many folks train MMA with a mind for 3, 5 minute rounds, and forget that in the dark alley there is no referee, no points deducted for low blows and no disqualification for eye-gouges and bites to the face!

I will take NOTHING away from the UFC/WEC/MMA crowd. Pound for pound, they are some of the toughest humans on the planet! And I certainly wouldn't want to fight any one of them on his terms! But we all need to remember that these guys are PRO's!

I think for the rest of us unwashed masses, relying on sport fighting for self-defense is foolish and teaching a combat sport as self-defense is irresponsible.

Well said. I completely agree sir.

 

[arnisador]

To my mind, these are top athletes in great shape and with obvious will to endure pain. That will win a lot of (fair) fights, so if it's one unarmed person vs. another unarmed person then I think the MMA person has a huge advantage. It's not the style as much as who is doing it and with what intensity.

Throw out a knife and it's a whole 'nother matter...

 

[cuts and bruises]

To my mind, these are top athletes in great shape and with obvious will to endure pain. That will win a lot of (fair) fights, so if it's one unarmed person vs. another unarmed person then I think the MMA person has a huge advantage. It's not the style as much as who is doing it and with what intensity.

Throw out a knife and it's a whole 'nother matter...

Absolutely true. I'd love to have the time to devote to cardio and weight training that these guys do!

And speaking of fair fights... isn't a fair fight any one that YOU win? I havn't heard of too many guys losing a fair fight on the street. There is always some type of "He cheated" comment. "I would have whipped him, but he threw a lit cigarette in my face..." what ever. All I know for certain is that there is NO WAY I want Rampage Jackson to give MY chin a love tap!

 

[jks9199]

MMA athletes and competitors have a lot going for them in a "real" fight; they're fit, they're strong, they're flexible, they're used to taking shots, and they've got "drive" or "will" or "desire". All these will help them to no end in a real fight. But they have some pretty big things working against them, too...

They're used to rules -- with both sides playing by the same rules. They're used to one-on-one fighting. They're used to a relatively convenient and forgiving environment. They're used to opponents who tend to stop before injury.

And I'm sure other folks can come up with more for each column.

In a "real fight", I expect that many MMA fighters would do well. But I think just as many wouldn't do so well. A real fight really comes down to all the particulars of the moment, combined with luck.

 

[Drag'n]

I think MMA gyms offer better instruction in learning how to fight than most of the so called SD schools I've seen.

The biggest advantage a MMA fighter has is that all their techs are pressure tested.
They are used to being in a real fight and defending themselves with effective techs that they have tried and tested in lots of hard sparring and in the ring.

TMAists may have more street oriented techs, but because of the dangers, they never get to test them in a realistic manner. So in a real situation they are less capable of aplying what they've learned.
Its like someone who learned to swim without ever stepping in the water (TMA) vrs someone who learned in a pool with floaters on.(MMA)
Throw em both in the ocean. Which one do you think will survive?

If I had to choose between MMAist and aTMAist to watch my back in a real situation, I'd take the MMAist. Rules or no rules, at least you know they can fight.
But if self defence is your goal, then I think a combination of street wise techs and mma type sparring is going to be the most effective.
And good stamina so you can run fast if you have to!

 

[FearlessFreep]

The problem with these sorts of questions is that people assume a sort of linear comparison.

As I've said before:

When all things are equal, strength wins
When all things are equal, size wins
When all things are equal, technique wins
When all things are equal, conditioning wins
When all things are equal, stamina wins
When all things are equal, intelligence wins
When all things are equal, confidence wins
When all things are equal, experience wins
When all things are equal, determination wins
When all things are equal, speed wins
All things are never equal

When it comes to self-defense, it's not a matter of sport vs non-sport, MMA vs TMA, Taekwondo vs Muy Thai. It's going to come down to who has the advantage in more of those areas.

MMA is not like self-defense, but neither is WTF Taekwondo, or Boxing, or any other sport fighting. However, the people who train for those sporting events gain strength, speed, stamina, intelligence, technique, etc...

The two biggest dangers in equating sport fighting with self-defense is a) being over confident and getting yourself into trouble you should rationally avoid and b) subconsciously limiting yourself to 'legal' techniques...and assuming you adversary will as well

 

[dungeonworks]

It doesn't matter if it's taught in an octagon or a cage....both places have rules 99% of the time. There are none on the street.

I think a currently training MMA guy would be better in a real life situation. I say that because many of the dojang's/dojo's I have visited, it is obvious the sensei/master hasn't ran 2 miles in recent memory let alone been subjected to any type of combat situation. 99.9% didn't use more than point sparring light contact for their "deadly" moves and practiced with compliant partners coming at them the same way from the same angle each time.....with no variation. They all had sets of rules and most practice was done in a static predetermined attack (reverse punch) where as at ALL of the MMA gym's I have visited the guys are used to getting hit or slammed and were in far better shape strength and cardio wise.

I would look more towards a good Kenpo or Krav Maga class for street self defence since they train hard and actually spar for these situations and against weapons carried today.

 

[meth18au]

I wasn't going to weigh into this one. I can see it becoming a TMA vs MMA sort of thread. Although the original topic was that MMA is good for self defense. I would have to agree with this- I see MMA as teaching you vital skills and giving you the conditioning to carry out these skills in a 'real' situation.

When all things are equal, strength wins
When all things are equal, size wins
When all things are equal, technique wins
When all things are equal, conditioning wins
When all things are equal, stamina wins
When all things are equal, intelligence wins
When all things are equal, confidence wins
When all things are equal, experience wins
When all things are equal, determination wins
When all things are equal, speed wins
All things are never equal

When it comes to self-defense, it's not a matter of sport vs non-sport, MMA vs TMA, Taekwondo vs Muy Thai. It's going to come down to who has the advantage in more of those areas.

However, I think MMA gives you a distinct advantage in many of these areas. One argument I keep hearing from many people is that "sport oriented arts can't be equated with self defence". So you tell me because I learn Muay Thai, it is not effective in the street because it is sport based? It is also combat based, pressure tested and gives me an advantage in all the areas that Fearless Freep pointed out in his post.

Now I think it comes down a lot to the individual, and then also to each individual situation- this impacts as to how well you can defend yourself from a particularly sticky situation. An untrained person may defend themselves and survive this situation, as may a "sport" based martial artist, as may a "traditional" martial artist or maybe even a "self defence" based martial artist. That is my personal view.

Now back to the point of "sport" based arts being "only a sport". Call it sport if you will, but I feel this term is being used in a negative sort of way to downgrade the effectiveness of certain arts by one side of this so call 'argument'. Yes it is very sport based. Can it be effective for self defense? Of course. I dare say Muay Thai fighters, boxers, and MMA'ists are potentially some of the best fighters around. For many reasons, if not only for the correlation with the points that Fearless Freep made before.

The two biggest dangers in equating sport fighting with self-defense is a) being over confident and getting yourself into trouble you should rationally avoid and b) subconsciously limiting yourself to 'legal' techniques...and assuming you adversary will as well

Now in regards to these 2 points, I will have to disagree. Why does equating sport fighting with self defense make somebody over-confident? Surely that is the trait of the individual? And couldn't a Kung Fu stylist whom doesn't compete be "over-confident"? And who says a Thai boxer will limit themselves to legal techniques? I know in my classes we are taught variations i.e. dirty tricks, that can't be used in the ring but are useful elsewhere. What is to stop me from biting your face, or kneeing your groin, or kicking you on the floor? Rules? I don't believe any Thai boxer (or MMAist or boxer) would limit themselves to 'legal' strikes in a do or die situation.

I hope I don't come across the wrong way. I did make my personal view earlier in this post clear I hope. However I see an increasing amount of posts from various threads, seeming to indicate a negative opinion of ringsports. I think it has become an "us" vs "them" sort of argument, with both sides, sadly, opting to use certain "terms" to put each other down.

So I just though I'd put my 2 cents forward.

 

[Andrew Green]

I don't care what anyone says... you DO fight like you train. If you're training for combat you will train with the destruction of your enemy in mind (see USMC boot camp). If you are training for a tournament you will NEVER train the killing/crippling strikes that are the bread and butter of a combat fighter.

That makes no sense, either you are training with them, in which cas you probably have a very long injury list, or you modify things to stay uninjured, and are then not training as you would fight as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

I wasn't going to weigh into this one. I can see it becoming a TMA vs MMA sort of thread. Although the original topic was that MMA is good for self defense. I would have to agree with this- I see MMA as teaching you vital skills and giving you the conditioning to carry out these skills in a 'real' situation.





However, I think MMA gives you a distinct advantage in many of these areas. One argument I keep hearing from many people is that "sport oriented arts can't be equated with self defence". So you tell me because I learn Muay Thai, it is not effective in the street because it is sport based? It is also combat based, pressure tested and gives me an advantage in all the areas that Fearless Freep pointed out in his post.

Now I think it comes down a lot to the individual, and then also to each individual situation- this impacts as to how well you can defend yourself from a particularly sticky situation. An untrained person may defend themselves and survive this situation, as may a "sport" based martial artist, as may a "traditional" martial artist or maybe even a "self defence" based martial artist. That is my personal view.

Now back to the point of "sport" based arts being "only a sport". Call it sport if you will, but I feel this term is being used in a negative sort of way to downgrade the effectiveness of certain arts by one side of this so call 'argument'. Yes it is very sport based. Can it be effective for self defense? Of course. I dare say Muay Thai fighters, boxers, and MMA'ists are potentially some of the best fighters around. For many reasons, if not only for the correlation with the points that Fearless Freep made before.






Now in regards to these 2 points, I will have to disagree. Why does equating sport fighting with self defense make somebody over-confident? Surely that is the trait of the individual? And couldn't a Kung Fu stylist whom doesn't compete be "over-confident"? And who says a Thai boxer will limit themselves to legal techniques? I know in my classes we are taught variations i.e. dirty tricks, that can't be used in the ring but are useful elsewhere. What is to stop me from biting your face, or kneeing your groin, or kicking you on the floor? Rules? I don't believe any Thai boxer (or MMAist or boxer) would limit themselves to 'legal' strikes in a do or die situation.

I hope I don't come across the wrong way. I did make my personal view earlier in this post clear I hope. However I see an increasing amount of posts from various threads, seeming to indicate a negative opinion of ringsports. I think it has become an "us" vs "them" sort of argument, with both sides, sadly, opting to use certain "terms" to put each other down.

So I just though I'd put my 2 cents forward.

A lot of good points here.

Just because something is designed for a sport, doesn't mean it can't be useful in self defense. This doesn't need to become an argument over which is better for self defense. It's just an acknowledgement that the training methods and skills developed in MMA can develop a very tough fighter, and that person could probably defend himself effectivly. And this in NO WAY impacts whether or not Traditional martial arts are effective for self defense as well.

American Football is a sport. I'll bet a 290 pound linebacker could use his experience in the game to plow over someone foolish enough to attack him. If there is a weapon involved that might not be the best approach to self defense, but if no weapons are involved, it could be a very effective means of self defense. Just because it's a sport doesn't mean it has no means of crossover.

 

[Flying Crane]

Prize fighters stop short of delivering a blow to the head/throat/eyes that would kill or cripple in a self-defense situation.

Good self defense does not mandate that you kill or cripple.

 

[FearlessFreep]

However, I think MMA gives you a distinct advantage in many of these areas

That was my mistake in forgetting a point I had meant to make.

Anyone who trains MMA, even for sport, is going to be strong in many of those areas, etc... If you are training for Olympic Style Taekwondo, you are training to be fast, conditioned, technical, etc... Anyone doing any training of any kind is going to have an advantage over not having trained at all. Heck, anyone training for football is going to be strong, fast, well-conditioned, used to taking a hit, etc.. So when it comes to "MMA as Self-Defense", well... even if you are training MMA just as a sport for cage-fighting, it's still going to give you a tremendous advantage in defending yourself.

 

[Tez3]

I think this is a very tired old argument. I train MMA, I train TSD and I train SD. The three disciplines interact with each other. Many MMA fighters are also TMAs, they, we, will train moves for fighting in a competition but we can adapt those moves to be used in a self defence situation. Our minds aren't limited you know to only fighting by rules! We are quite able to think when attacked "ooo this is a no rules situation and I can hit him in the ghoolies or bite him..whatever" just as in the ring or cage we are discplined enough to play by the rules.

I rather resent the thinking too that MMA fighters aren't the 'masters' of anything!

 

[meth18au]

I'm getting rather sick of these tired old arguments as well Tez- and I don't even train in MMA!!! And sometimes I feel the same sort of rubbish is being projected onto all of the 'martial sports'. Using terminology to create 'sides' and trying to imply limited effectiveness because of the sporting aspect of our arts!


I have seen plenty of stupidity from both sides of the argument in my short time on martial talk. I can't even imagine what some of you old timers have had to read!!! LOL. I think I'm just going to have to accept that this element of stupidity exists in a certain segment of both sides of this argument! There is nothing we can do to open the eyes of the close minded people, for they will always exist


Peace

 

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

(Sigh) Well, you guys sucked me in. this argument IS tired (thank you, Tez), but thinking about this, it just won't leave me alone unless I put my 2 cents in. I am a TMA (Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu/Ninjutsu) who also cross-trains in MMA. To say that one arts has advantages/disadvantages over another is the kind of argument that smacks of "my dad can kick the crap outta your dad", when it must be understood that the most important factor is being overlooked in this argument; the individuals that are in harms way, as well as the situation and surroundings. As someone with a foot in each pond, my ultimate goal in a confrontation is to SURVIVE THAT CONFRONTATION BY ANY MEANS NESSESSARY !!!!!!!!
If that means that I need to run away because that would be the most prudent coarse of action, then I'm "kickin' rocks". However, if I'm in a situation that procludes me from running (Tired, injured, out with slow-*** grandma, etc. ), and this means that i have to "man-up", "stand to" and fight, then the means , ANY MEANS, are clearly justified by the end . To go against someone who is stronger, faster, and more aggressive than I am, means that I will resort to the most underhanded, skulldugger-ish tactics in order to survive (if you feel out-classed, out-manned, or out-fought, time to go to a tool/weapon and "shady" tactics!) .
As fights, 8-9 times out of ten, are about ego, there's alot to be said about "subduing the ego", and just "taking care of business".
My ultimate point is this: I don't care WHAT you profess to study, even the most aggressive, single-minded individual, or the most nerdly 80Lbs. panty-waist, who has absolutly NO training in MMA, ninjutsu, or what ever, can overcome a Martial Arts "primadonna" with a concealed GLOCK !!!!! In this age of concealed and improvised weapons, one cannot afford to be an ***-hole to everyone you meet (sometimes the best defense is not to offend). Sometimes formal training doesn't nessessarily garauntee you victory, or even the rest of you life.

Centuries of guerilla wars have been fought (up to this very day) and won, by the person (people) not with the best training, equipment, and support, but by the most tenacious, single-minded, fanatically devoted individual(s) , to which "2nd place" is senonimous with "dead". To go into a confrontation with THIS MIND-SET , WITH OR WITHOUT MA training, is to increase your probability of survival ten-fold , and possibly save your life!
'Nuff said. Peace out.
-B

 

[BallistikMike]

What does MMA give you?

Well first and foremost a well conditioned athlete if its an MMA gym of any quality. Which is huge if anything goes down when your out and about in real life. It is also a quality I have seen in a few TMA schools as well.

I feel that is the very most important thing that an MMA school has over "most" TMA's being taught these days.

A close second would be the contact level.

And a not to distant 3rd would be the number of actual techniques that the MMA athlete practices under thier rules. Which is about 2 dozen that they get real REAL good at.

Of course there is the exception to any of these when it comes to your individual dojos, dojangs. kwons and gyms. I know we can find MMA gyms that just flat out suck and we could find TMA garage classes that are down right awesome!

On a whole however MMA does bring something so concentrated and the athlete gets very good at it that TMA's do not. How to take out a single opponent under pressure very well under thier rules. Thats the rub.

Self-Defense needs to address clubs, knives, guns, multiple attackers, bricks, pavement etc.. that a controled game doesn't... or does it?

Does learning how to hit another trained athlete with knockout power in the head who is trying to do the same to you apply to the above scenarios?

Would this help in a knife encounter ... I say heck yeah!

How about multiple attackers? Even more so addressing and neutralizing threats quickly and decisively stops a multiple attack faster then anything else I have ever witnessed and knocking out the 1st bad guy would help!

Does learning how to stuff a tackle apply?

How about understanding the environment in which you fight cage/ring/open mat/alley/bar?

Yes an MMA athlete trains for a specific opponent a set number of days and doesnt have fear of being stomped into the earth because of rules and a referee, the TMA trains under these rules also.

They dont stomp thier training partner(s) into the grave, they stop short. They dont rip out an eye they stop short. They dont bust a knee they stop short. To take it even a step further the TMA stops short with a self-imposed rule... they dont want to hurt thier training partners.

The MMA athlete goes full out striking targets that cause knockouts, inflict pain and also make the opponent concede in a safe manner because the rules and strikes are designed to make a game of it. They also dont stop until the other opponent says to or they are forced to by a referee (This is a huge factor that isn't hardly braught up). The TMA student will have slight stoppages to see if he/she should stop because they train that way, the mma athlete will never stop until knockout, concession or they are stopped by someone else because they train that way.

It is a game though that transfers over to real world rather well. It gives a delivery system of tried and proven "safe" techniques that do not have to be altered at all to be effective on the street and they have also been proven in a game setting.

Eye gouge, groin shot, windpipe crush, solid techniques that are known and are practiced to within a hairs breath of reality on each other, but do stop short of actual contact.

Jab, straight, guillotine, sprawl, underhooks also solid techniques that are known and are practiced at full power, to resisting opponent's and as an athlete you have pulled them off so you know they work. No theory, no what if... just the know.

I train Kenpo I love it. I trained MMA for 2 years I hated it because I stunk at the game they play, I hated the pain it caused, but darn did it make my Kenpo a heck of a lot better for myself, for me not the system, just me ok ... LOL

 

[onibaku]

whatever the art is, it still depends on how you train and your will to win