Mistakes in TKD

[terryl965]

What does everybody think of all the different ways of stances and Poomse in WTF or ITF TKD. What I mean by this is every single tournament I go to the Poomse are done just a little different than what we teach, I'm not saying mine is the right way at all. What I'm saying is why do we have so many ways for the same Poomse?

Does anybody see a end to the means here, I know they are trying to get evryone on the same p[age but how do they do that when we have so many organization out there treaking them to fit there needs?
Terry

 

[zDom]

What does everybody think of all the different ways of stances and Poomse in WTF or ITF TKD. What I mean by this is every single tournament I go to the Poomse are done just a little different than what we teach, I'm not saying mine is the right way at all. What I'm saying is why do we have so many ways for the same Poomse?

Does anybody see a end to the means here, I know they are trying to get evryone on the same p[age but how do they do that when we have so many organization out there treaking them to fit there needs?
Terry

A good friend of mine, Master Tim Wall of GM Ed Sell's U.S. Chung Do Kwan organization, had a very unpleasant experience at a recent national forms competition in San Diego.

I would be willing to discuss my personal thoughts with you in private, but not in a public forum.

 

[terryl965]

A good friend of mine, Master Tim Wall of GM Ed Sell's U.S. Chung Do Kwan organization, had a very unpleasant experience at a recent national forms competition in San Diego.

I would be willing to discuss my personal thoughts with you in private, but not in a public forum.

zDoom send mea pm if you wish sir be happy to decuss this.
Terry

 

[Kacey]

I think that there are many organizations, each a little different, with not enough emphasis on technical proficiency. There are too many different groups, and too little coordination between them (and often within them) to maintain technical proficiency - which, personally, I consider to be very disturbing. Unfortunately, as things stand today, I don't have any good suggestions about how to improve things.

 

[matt.m]

A good friend of mine, Master Tim Wall of GM Ed Sell's U.S. Chung Do Kwan organization, had a very unpleasant experience at a recent national forms competition in San Diego.

I would be willing to discuss my personal thoughts with you in private, but not in a public forum.

Scott,

I think I know what you are talking about. Send me a mail just to make sure I have my facts straight.

 

[matt.m]

What does everybody think of all the different ways of stances and Poomse in WTF or ITF TKD. What I mean by this is every single tournament I go to the Poomse are done just a little different than what we teach, I'm not saying mine is the right way at all. What I'm saying is why do we have so many ways for the same Poomse?

Does anybody see a end to the means here, I know they are trying to get evryone on the same p[age but how do they do that when we have so many organization out there treaking them to fit there needs?
Terry

Terry I believe that when forms "changed" a few years ago that it was ok. However, to standardize everything poomse wise I would believe that the ITF and WTF should have a representative perform each respective poomse being video taped. I believe that the poomse should in turn be viewable online.

Other than that I am not 100% sure.

 

[Last Fearner]

What I'm saying is why do we have so many ways for the same Poomse?

This is an excellent question, Master Stoker! Ever since my early days in the ATA, I have seen forms, not only being performed differently between organizations, but also being changed periodically within one organization. The ATA, under the late Grandmaster H.U. Lee, used the Chang Hon forms that General Choi had created, and would constantly change the way all instructors were supposed to teach each form. On a yearly basis, stances would change, postures, target levels, and so on.

They may have been attempting to improve the forms, and refine techniques, but it appeared as though they were simply trying to make people stay current, or become out-dated. It was very confusing, and if an instructor was not "in the loop" of things, they were often teaching their students last years methods.

When the Kukkiwon (and WTF at the time) introduced the Taegeuk poomsae, they held a major seminar for all of the Korean Masters, and Grandmasters to attend so everyone could be doing things the same way. I attended many USTU Referee seminars where these Grandmasters, who had learned the forms from the original source, taught how to perform the forms, and judge them for Olympic competition. There was supposed to be a high degree of consistency for all - - but that is not the way things go.

What tends to happen is each Grandmaster goes back to his school, and either forgets what he was shown, or attempts to adjust the forms to fit his personal philosophy. If a stance, technique or target does not make sense to him, according to his life-time of studying, he will say, "this is how I want you to do it." Pretty soon, there are hundreds of Grandmasters teaching the same form with their own personal interpretations and tweaks.

Many of them publish their own videos and DVDs. Each one containing variations that were not approved by the Kukkiwon, or these Grandmasters are too high rank, powerful and influential for anyone to verbally reprimand them for doing things their own way. You also will get thousands of lower ranking instructors who attend one seminar, purchase a video of forms, or read a book and try to teach the poomsae.

I have seen many mistakes in the "official" textbooks from incorrect photos, inaccurate explanation or description of the movements, to wrong terminology for certain techniques. How are people who don't know these forms well, know the language, or have access to prime sources supposed to get it right. It's not their fault.

Speaking of the U.S. Chung Do Kwan, here is a prime example of some differences among organizations. Sr. Grandmaster Sell, GM Brenda Sell, and their son Sr. Master Ron Sell, have produced videos on the Taegeuk forms. As it happens, they have their own preferences as to what is important in forms. Their forms are good, and they are excellent at performing, but one of the differences (besides terminology) is they usually kick very high.

However, when I was training as an Olympic Referee, we were told that the kicks in the Taegeuk forms were to be focused at the mid-section. If a competitor "showed off" their flexibility by kicking high, they lacked focus, and were doing the form incorrectly. We were told to score them lower for this. Now, this was in the 1990s, so I don't know what the consensus is these days.

Many of these things I do not see as "right" or "wrong" ways to perform the techniques or to do forms. They are just different preferences as to what is important. There are slight differences in measurement of stances, movements of the body between techniques, and where in the form you should Kihap.

In the end, what matters is that each judge should be open minded to these differences, and score in a fair, and consistent manner. Most times, you can see a student is doing stances or techniques poorly, or has a poor memory of the form, lacking confidence, concentration, and mental focus. Other times, they are just doing what their instructor taught them - - so it is not their fault.

I would like to see improvements with many instructors who are lacking of the training themselves, but I am sure that we will never get all of the Masters, and Grandmasters, who have been doing things their own unique way for decades because that is the way their Kwan has always done it, to change and conform to one standardized method. Should they, or is it a good thing that we have these differences?

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[IcemanSK]

One thing I heard recently from a reliable source was that the Tae Guek forms are intentionally changed slightly every 5 years or so to ensure that masters & grandmasters stay "current" on the state of Taekwondo (meaning current with Kukkiwon). I can think of several examples over the years where I've seen techniques that differ from when I learned them in the early 80's. And as has been mentioned kihaps move to different places on occasion.

I suppose the intent is to keep the art "fresh." I see the thoughts here are like mine. It's more frustrating than anything.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I learned all of the origional ITF forms/tuls. This was in their first state before the introduction of the sine wave method. However, you will see even ITF people doing forms differently depending on the time when their instructor was taught. It is the same in WTF, ATA, etc. While this is bad for standardization, it does make for some great diversity.

 

[zDom]

However, when I was training as an Olympic Referee, we were told that the kicks in the Taegeuk forms were to be focused at the mid-section. If a competitor "showed off" their flexibility by kicking high, they lacked focus, and were doing the form incorrectly. We were told to score them lower for this.

This is the type of change I just can't agree with. High kicks are, to me, one of the distinguishing traits of TKD.

And how does a high kick (executed with proper form) "lack focus"?

Also I wonder: are these "changes" happening in Korea, too? Or do they mandate these changes only the U.S. and other countries so everybody else ends up looking inferior to Korean TKD?

When it comes to forms, I think consistency is more important that "keeping things fresh." Poomse, to me, should be the ONE place where ALL TKD should find common ground.

Plenty of room for kwans to keep things fresh in areas like one-step sparring, for example.

Granted, I'm not a GM or even a master. Heck, I'm really kind of "retired" from TKD in order to concentrate on HKD. But I still love TKD and I guess I still hold some strong opinions on it for someone of my lowly rank (2nd dan).

 

[Kacey]

This is the type of change I just can't agree with. High kicks are, to me, one of the distinguishing traits of TKD.

No argument there.

And how does a high kick (executed with proper form) "lack focus"?

If the pattern calls for a middle kick, and the person does a high kick instead, then, no matter how good the kick is, it is off the target called for in the pattern. Thus, it would "lack focus".

Also I wonder: are these "changes" happening in Korea, too? Or do they mandate these changes only the U.S. and other countries so everybody else ends up looking inferior to Korean TKD?

This is a question that has come up in various forms about every aspect of TKD, and of other arts as well, in regards to performance in the originating country and other countries in which the art is performed.

When it comes to forms, I think consistency is more important that "keeping things fresh." Poomse, to me, should be the ONE place where ALL TKD should find common ground.

Not that I disagree, exactly... but I practice tuls, the Ch'ang H'on (ITF) pattern set; I don't know any poomse. Yes, I think that there should be consistency within a kwan - but you need to remember that not all kwans perform the same techniques or pattern sets.

Plenty of room for kwans to keep things fresh in areas like one-step sparring, for example.

For some kwans, yes (we encourage creativity in this area) but some have required sets for step sparring at all levels, to the extent that students only know the sets, not the rules used to create them. Personally, I disagree with the latter method - but it does happen.

Granted, I'm not a GM or even a master. Heck, I'm really kind of "retired" from TKD in order to concentrate on HKD. But I still love TKD and I guess I still hold some strong opinions on it for someone of my lowly rank (2nd dan).

When I was a 2nd dan, and referred to myself in that same fasion - "lowly little second dan" were the words I used, as I recall - my sahbum got as mad as I've ever seen him, and told me to stop thinking that way... and so should you.

 

[zDom]

If the pattern calls for a middle kick, and the person does a high kick instead, then, no matter how good the kick is, it is off the target called for in the pattern. Thus, it would "lack focus".

Good point -- for example, in Tae Guek Oh Chong, where the mid-secton sidekick sets them up for the elbow smash...

you need to remember that not all kwans perform the same techniques or pattern sets.

Another good point. It would be nice if all kwans would do the WTF forms, for example, but it can be hard to devote enough time to each form if doing two sets. I eventually stopped doing the Chon-Ji/ITF forms for precisely this reason: I wasn't getting enough reps on my taegueks.

When I was a 2nd dan, and referred to myself in that same fasion - "lowly little second dan" were the words I used, as I recall - my sahbum got as mad as I've ever seen him, and told me to stop thinking that way... and so should you.

Again, point taken. I just wonder if I'm speaking out of my depth -- there is a lot to learn about the art of TKD between 2nd dan and 5th dan.


Nice points, Kacey

 

[ajs1976]

Isn't this issue why the WTF/ released the Dartfish videos? I know this only addresses the WTF and not the other organizations.

However, when I was training as an Olympic Referee, we were told that the kicks in the Taegeuk forms were to be focused at the mid-section. If a competitor "showed off" their flexibility by kicking high, they lacked focus, and were doing the form incorrectly. We were told to score them lower for this. Now, this was in the 1990s, so I don't know what the consensus is these days.

Has something been changed in the Taeguk forms, because there are some high section kicks.

My instructor brought this up in class one night. He suggested watching the scores they judges are giving the groups that go before you and see if they are going for substance or flash.

 

[terryl965]

Isn't this issue why the WTF/ released the Dartfish videos? I know this only addresses the WTF and not the other organizations.



Has something been changed in the Taeguk forms, because there are some high section kicks.

My instructor brought this up in class one night. He suggested watching the scores they judges are giving the groups that go before you and see if they are going for substance or flash.

Doc the Dartfish program is already out dated by alot of the higher ups and in the poomse the kick that are being kicked high like in Koryo the sidekicks are mid-level but just about everyone does it as a high side kick. Don't know why because it is tought as a mid level kick at the Kukkiwon.
Terry

 

[Last Fearner]

This is the type of change I just can't agree with. High kicks are, to me, one of the distinguishing traits of TKD.

Kacey answered the focus question very well. If the rules call for a mid-section punch or kick, and you are three inches above, below, left, or right, your focus is off. If you kick face level, it is way off, even if that is what your instructor taught you to do. Yes, it might be useful to see if the judges are scoring high on that, but I think it is a shame if they are.

I like the high kicks also, and I train hard so that I can do them (even at my age). They are great for demonstrations before the public for show. Flexibility works well more for reach forward, and ease of movement, but can be quite effective when choosing to kick to the head.

The problem in competition arose from the fact that, while high kicks are impressive, they should not be the standard by which we judge skill. A person, of any age or physical health, should be scored the same, even if they can kick no higher than the solar plexus (mid-section). In the 70s, at every ATA tournament I attended (as a competitor or a judge) every Black Belt was doing Kwang-Gae form. The opening two kicks (left side and right side) were to be first a low kick to the knee, and a high kick to the face. Every tournament had one or two characters who could do the splits, and would kick straight up, 8 ft. in the air on the second kick. The audience would go "oooooooo!" and the judges would all give them a 9 (Master Allemier, ATA Vice-President would say, "there's no such thing as a 10..... except for Bo Derek, and she's not here!).

The Kukkiwon (and WTF approved) Taegeuk poomsae, and most of the Black Belt forms, are supposed to emphasize mid-section kicks for real self defense, and to avoid encouraging judges from giving high scores for high kicks, thereby shutting out 1st place trophies and gold medals from anyone who can not do the splits. Koryo is supposed to begin with the two side kicks (one to the knee, and the other to the mid-section).

Many Black Belts doing Koryo, still can't resist showing more "flare" by kicking to the face, but I have even seen them do the old "sky-high" straight up kicks. It disgusts me when I see untrained judges drooling with envy, and giving them scores of 10 (and Bo Derek is nowhere in sight!). In the past, I have seen these high kickers lose, and their jaw hits the ground, and the audience groans with puzzled looks on their poor little, uneducated faces.

Also I wonder: are these "changes" happening in Korea, too? Or do they mandate these changes only the U.S. and other countries so everybody else ends up looking inferior to Korean TKD?

Yes, the changes occur in Korea, too. In fact, that is where they typically originate (when the changes are authorized). The adjustments come down the pike, and everyone is supposed to attend seminars, and stay current, like Master Stoker said. Of course, there are the changes that originate within a kwan, or a particular school, as I said before.

CM D.J. Eisenhart
________________________
Last Fearner

 

[terryl965]

Last Fearner that is one of the reason I stopped refing, so many would give a high score just because he had a high kick and when I score low I always had to defend myself with well that is a mid-level kick so they had no control and the other refs. are like but to kick like that he does have control. So it was with great sorrow that I stopped refing.

Terry

 

[FearlessFreep]

The one that comes to my mind is a 1st Dan form (Kuryo or something like that, I've never done it so I don't recall the name except from hearing it)

Anyway, it has a double sidekick. My understanding is that the sidekicks are technically supposed to be targetted low than middle. However when I've seen it done in competitiion it seems like everyone is competing to see if they can knock out a lighbulb, they try to kick so high

 

[zDom]

The one that comes to my mind is a 1st Dan form (Kuryo or something like that, I've never done it so I don't recall the name except from hearing it)

Anyway, it has a double sidekick. My understanding is that the sidekicks are technically supposed to be targetted low than middle. However when I've seen it done in competitiion it seems like everyone is competing to see if they can knock out a lighbulb, they try to kick so high

I recall being taught at our local tournaments and even during testing they prefer to see knee-then-face sidekicks in Koryo, or even belt-then-face, to show ability even though form truly calls for knee&belt.

Truthfully, I think the knee-face is the most aesthetically pleasing, so that's the way I've done it. Used to do belt-face just because it was the hardest variation.

Doesn't make it right, though, does it?