Mature Content! Making Friends In My New Neighborhood: So Whos the ******* Here?

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Cruentus

Cruentus

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should probably elaborate on what I would have done differently. I wouldn't have used as much profanity. I am not morally against profanity at all, and I think that it has it's place and can solidify a point. However, excessive profanity tends to bring you down a level in repsect, and it gives them another point to focus on rather then their own poor behavior (as this guy did).

Also worth noting, I am not going to latch on to any sort of fantasy ideals of "would a true martial artist act this way." The best thing I can do is be honest with myself and others, which is why when I post something like this, I am going to be honest about it and unafraid to point out mistakes that I may have made. The second best thing I can do is to realize that my actions are a mirror of me, and represent me as a person. So when I make mistakes, it only says that I am human; but at the time I am making the mistakes, I am representing myself poorly. Thirdly, there is the issue of picking your battles and looking at the cost/reward aspect when deciding to confront someone. If confronting could get you into a fight and a lawsuit, sometimes it ain't worth it even if your in the right.

That all said, I do feel that it was right to confront this person, and I am glad I did it. Sometimes confronting bad bahavior is the right thing to do. However, I could have done a few things differently. I am just glad that I am the type of person who can admit it.

Paul
 

Gemini

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Tulisan said:
The best thing I can do is be honest with myself and others, which is why when I post something like this, I am going to be honest about it and unafraid to point out mistakes that I may have made. The second best thing I can do is to realize that my actions are a mirror of me, and represent me as a person. So when I make mistakes, it only says that I am human; but at the time I am making the mistakes, I am representing myself poorly..... .....However, I could have done a few things differently. I am just glad that I am the type of person who can admit it.

Paul
That's all you really can do. Yes, we all make mistakes, but we don't all live up to them. You've not only done that, but reflected on it and learned from it. That's no small thing.
 

dearnis.com

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Late add-on...
I feel your pain. I know where you are coming from. I think the story is a riot because it turned out well.
But....
Dude, if that had escalated you would have issues to deal with years down the road.

That siad, and I think you realize it, well done.
 

Sin

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I am pleased that you used your words............and you shown control, by not knocking the guys head off....BUT you could have just let it go, and just be passive. The way i am taught is that you only fight if your life/well being is threatened. Your life wasn't threatened, it was your pride. I commened you for your physical control, but for your mental you lose points.
 
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Cruentus

Cruentus

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Sin said:
I am pleased that you used your words............and you shown control, by not knocking the guys head off....BUT you could have just let it go, and just be passive. The way i am taught is that you only fight if your life/well being is threatened. Your life wasn't threatened, it was your pride. I commened you for your physical control, but for your mental you lose points.

Gotta disagree with you there on a point.

Being passive is not always the answer. Also, my pride was not hurt at any point in the conflict, so it had nothing to do with that. It boils down to the simple fact that people shouldn't be allowed to get away with bad behavior. When is someone is doing something inconsiderate or behaving badly, sometimes calling them out on the behavior IS the right thing to do.

One just needs to use descretion, tact, and good judgement when doing so. I was flawed mostly in my tactfulness.

Paul
 

sgtmac_46

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Tulisan said:
Gotta disagree with you there on a point.

Being passive is not always the answer. Also, my pride was not hurt at any point in the conflict, so it had nothing to do with that. It boils down to the simple fact that people shouldn't be allowed to get away with bad behavior. When is someone is doing something inconsiderate or behaving badly, sometimes calling them out on the behavior IS the right thing to do.

One just needs to use descretion, tact, and good judgement when doing so. I was flawed mostly in my tactfulness.

Paul
Amen brother. Living a passive life was not what this country was founded on. The meek do not inherit the earth, that's just something people tell the meek to keep them passive and controlled. There is nothing wrong with standing up for yourself.

The sad fact is that the majority of people (including many martial artists) are afraid to stand up to these type of people out of fear. Then they disquise their fear as if it were some sort of virtue, and create huge myths about it.

Bravo for not knocking the guys block off, but also bravo for telling him how it is. He'll most likely be more considerate the next time he pulls up to the pumps. You were assertive AND managed to show this guy how big of a jerk he was, something that couldn't have been done if you had physically beat him up. Confidence in your physical ability to do so, however, created a situation where you weren't afraid to engage him in some pointed verbal dialogue.

You did nothing wrong, except maybe the profanity. Imagine if our forefathers had worried about offending the British, or became so concerned with fear and not creating a confrontation that they were afraid to act. There wouldn't be a United States of America. I'm by no means equating your actions with the founding of our country (lest someone decide to try and debate me on that silly point), however there was a mindset present in that time that I don't see illustrated as much in modern society.
 
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agreed, i feel that one can be calm, relaxed and gentle w/ out being passive. that is to say, can still be assertive... but in a mature manor.

just look at Rosa Parks.
 

Ender

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Tulisan said:
Gotta disagree with you there on a point.

Being passive is not always the answer. Also, my pride was not hurt at any point in the conflict, so it had nothing to do with that. It boils down to the simple fact that people shouldn't be allowed to get away with bad behavior. When is someone is doing something inconsiderate or behaving badly, sometimes calling them out on the behavior IS the right thing to do.

One just needs to use descretion, tact, and good judgement when doing so. I was flawed mostly in my tactfulness.

Paul

Well I think you are wise to realize that maybe it went a little too far than it should have and you let your emotions get a bit of a hold of you. At least you can reflect this and learn from it. I know in the heat of even a verbal conflict that things can escalate real quick. On one hand I love to see blowhards get their come uppance, but on the other, was it worth it? I don't know if you have children, and had things gone bad you may have had to have a conversation like this:

"Daddy, why are you going to jail?"

"um...someone cut in line ahead of me and I hurt/killed them."

just something to think about.
 

Sin

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I was only suggesting that you did use more tact....Don't sweat the small stuff man, it only causes more trouble......Honestly do you want to get hurt or go to jail over someone cutting you in line......I think not....just think about it.
 

sgtmac_46

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Ender said:
"Daddy, why are you going to jail?"

"um...someone cut in line ahead of me and I hurt/killed them."

just something to think about.
It wouldn't be like that it would be "Daddy, why are you going to court?"

"um....someone cut in line, I told them that was rude, they pulled out a knife/gun and I hurt/killed them."

Show me where it was suggested hurting/killing someone for cutting in line. What they decide to bring it to is their business, but I refuse to keep my mouth shut out of FEAR of how someone is going to respond. The initially incident provoked the initial response, pointing out the rude behavior of the person. What happens after that is a seperate incident. I still have the right to defend myself against their aggressive action. Just because I DARED to point out rude behavior, in no way makes my right to self-defense null and void. The suggestion that it does sounds kind of grannyesque. If they keep it civil and verbal (See also: legal) i'll keep the dialogue civil and verbal. If they attack me, i'll respond appropriately. Isn't America great?
 

Rich Parsons

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Tulisan said:
Making Friends In My New Neighborhood: So Whos the ******* Here?

This is a funny story, but it applies to self-defense. I debated putting this in the locker room, but it brings up the question of where is the line drawn between appropriate assertiveness and aggressiveness that is not conducive of good self-defense.

The question I have is, who is the ******* here? Plus, there are many things here that I could have done differently, so this is good for all of our learning experiences. The story is as follows:

I just moved in to this area, and I am at Meijers (the only grocery store/gas station for miles) to fill up my gas at the gas station at 4 oclock in the afternoon. I am waiting in line talking to a friend on the phone. There are 3 cars in front of me and 2 behind me. I wait and wait, and finally it is my turn, and the available pump is on the other side of the station by the exit, requiring me to drive around everyone to get there.

As I am driving around, a beat up van pulls in through the exit, and B-lines right for the open pump. I stop and we make eye contact while he is now very slowly pulling into the filling area. He is a large man (about 250) with a mustache. I gesture with my thumb for him to back out. He yells, What!? What!? while throwing his hands up erratically. So, honk my horn, shake my head, and slowly mouth the words, Back out while gesturing for him to do so with my thumb. He continues to yell What!? while waving his hands, and finally stops in the spot at the pump.

Now, understand that with some of the bad behavior I have been witnessing over the past few weeks, I have reached my tolerance level. I am tired of people getting away with bad behavior, with no recourse. If I cant stop the behavior without putting others or myself in jeopardy, then I am going to at least let them know that they are behaving badly.

. . .

Paul :supcool:


Paul,

I have to ask you a question. This is about rude behaviour and letting people know about it.

Everytime I visit a certain establishment and get this certain waitress, I never get a lemon in my water. Others who do not ask at other tables get it. Others at my table who order Oberon (* Local Beer *) with an orange wedge, standard, I cannot get one even if I ask.

Yet I am expected to tip, or look like the jerk. If I call her on her attitude, then those I am with who know her might feel uncomfortable or not get their god service in the future. So what do I do? Well last night I had it. After being told there were no oranges, and not getting a lemon yet again for the second time that night. I order a glass of water and a beer together, and I expect to tip for both, but, with horrible service, . . ., . So after waiting a reasonable amount of time, for her to bring bakc the lemon I aksed for, I decided to head to the bar and get my own. She cut me off at the station and grabbed an orange slice put it into a glass, and handed it to me. She said," They must have just cut more oranges", afraid I had caught her in a lie. I stated, "This is fine, but I want my lemon." Her: " It thought you wanted that for your beer?", Me: "I do but, I aslo want my lemon. " She grabbed one and handed to me, and I left without saying anything. I always say thank you, but not this time. She ended up, charging me tax for the beer, (* not charges before or after at anytime *), and then she made me change and made a mistake in my favor. I always inform people of this type of error. This time I just left the $1 and some change on the table for the tip. The $1 was her mistake.

So, why am I wrong to want to get service, and when I do not get it repeatedly, to educate the person on what is the problem. She was all friendly and in my face when I went to the bar to get it myself, yet nothing the rest of the night and nothing before.

Bad manners, no respect? or just poor performance constantly rewarded, and so not it is not only allowed, but is expected.
:idunno:
 
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Cruentus

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First of all to let everyone know the humor that I see behind Rich's response, I go to the bar with Rich all the time. Out of all of my friends, he is the most particular about what he wants, and gets the most annoyed with **** ups out of most everyone else at the table, yet for some reason, he gets the crappiest service. It doesn't seem to matter if the waitress doesn't know that he is particular or not. It's sad, sick humor. Poor Rich!

Rich,

I would say that how to deal with a waitress that is at a place where we frequent is a much tougher decision, because it is a place that we all frequent. If you call her out on it and piss her off over lemons (and you are the only person at the table who it particular about that, usually) then it could ruin the service that everyone else is getting. If you tell a manager, that will probably piss her off more so then if you were to confront her yourself. If you just don't tip her without explaination, then you are seen as a shlub who doesn't leave good tips, which effects the service for everyone. So yes, I totally see your dilemma. Now...which waitress at B's bar is it this time? :rofl: (I totally know the place, and I can guess who your talking about).

Here is a solution you should try. I think that if there is something that you are really particular about, like lemons in your beer and water, then on your first order, say so. Then ask for a bunch. Say, "Just so you know, I really like lemons. Could you bring me a small bowl or glass of lemon slices so I don't have to ask you for them all night?" Also, consider asking for a pitcher of water and a glass with your beer, so you don't look like a deuch ordering water by the glass for the whole night. Dude, you KNOW that you drink about 4 glasses of water for every beer you order, so might-as-well. ;)

So, now your doing everything you can to try to make her life easier. So, if she does what you ask, make sure you tip her for it. If she is still not doing what you ask, then as a last resort calling her out on it is appropriate. Of course, discuss it with the table first. Because if you call her out, then we all need to be prepared to boycott that place for a while if she or management doesn't comply.

Anyways, I never put that much thought into it because I don't drink that water stuff....and what the hell is a lemon? Another shot please.... :ultracool

Maybe we'll try that and see how it goes?

Paul
 
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Cruentus

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Rich,

Another thing: I think you were asking me where the blame lies as well?

I'd say it is the waitresses fault, not yours. If she didn't have her head up her ***, she'd recognize what you order every friggin time we are there, and she'd think to bring you a bowl of lemon slices so she doesn't have to deal with it the rest of the night. However, people are stupid a lot. You cannot rely on others to be intelligent when it comes to getting what you want. So even though it is her fault, you still need to make it as painfully simple for her as possible to service you if you ever want to be happy with the service.

And riddle me this, Parsons, why is it that you seem to never get your lemons when everyone else around us does? This happends all the time, and I have yet to figure this one out. Don't these waitresses realize that you will, in fact, crush their heads and wear their skin as a coat on your next serial head crushing spree? Man...someone should warn these people.... :rolleyes:
 

Adept

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There is a whole world of difference between assertive and aggresive, and it is important for everyone, not just martial artists, to learn the difference. No one should be passive. It leads to victimisation more often than it avoids conflicts. Assertiveness will prevent an attack, aggresiveness will provoke one.

I think Marc Macyoung said it best - http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/assertiveness.html
 

sgtmac_46

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Adept said:
There is a whole world of difference between assertive and aggresive, and it is important for everyone, not just martial artists, to learn the difference. No one should be passive. It leads to victimisation more often than it avoids conflicts. Assertiveness will prevent an attack, aggresiveness will provoke one.

I think Marc Macyoung said it best - http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/assertiveness.html
Of course. Assertiveness wards off predatory aggression. Aggressiveness sometimes provokes defensive aggression.
 

47MartialMan

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First of all, there is going to be rude people out there.

I have, on many ocassions, just pulled up to a open pump-or I thought was opened. In other words, I was the other guy.

People in a gas stations, do not always appear to be waiting for gas at a PARTICULAR pump. A gas line is not like a store line.

Perhaps you should have had your car ready to go instead of talking on the phone. Which I may add, is against policy at most pumps.

These cell phone/car drivers, which I am one at times, need to be cognizant.

Being "armed to the teeth" will not matter if the opponent got the jump on you. Which is a bad idea to approach someones' vehicle and yelling at them. Or plain yelling at someone.

I have seen and read in the news, people getting shot and victim of violent acts just because they decide to be bold and stand up.

In my old environment, you would've gotton shot-easily. Or you would have been followed and later "tagged".

Now, this is by no means to rag upon anyone who shall stand up for what they believe is right.

But, as advanced martial artists, a level of control is in order.

I have many incidents in my distant past of many physical conflicts resulting from yelling matches.

Assertiveness doesn't have to involve profanity and yelling.

And too much of it can turn into agressiveness.

Am I saying to be passive? Am I saying that rude or bad behavior should be tolerated and un-checked?

No to both.

One of the things that freaked out two of my students when we were in a public place and up against others ready to fight-my calmness and almost non-verbal preparation.

Fight for what is right, but is it right to let subtle exchanges esculate into more violent ones?

I rarely get into such confrontations-verbal and physical.

Will the "pump-jumper" learn. Maybe. Or maybe he will be prepared to shot the next guy ready to come to his vehicle yelling. Maybe not if he has the same attitude instilled.






 

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Just started a thread for this circumstance, this guy sounds to me like he was/is a complete arsehole.
Did you really believe that he didnt see a line, give me a break this bloke didnt see anyone who he thought was going to confront him.
Having a bad week, not sleeping are not reasons to behave like he is the only person on the planet.
I'm glad to hear this didn't get to a physical confrontation but if it did this guy was only going to get what he deserved and probably deserved from previous days, as it sounds like he thought he was big enough to intimidate people into doing what ever he wanted when ever he wanted.
Chalk up one for the good guys.
 
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