MartialTalk and the COVID-19 Pandemic

[jobo]

Still a lot of questions. But promising news, and I'm glad to see actual experts leading our US efforts.

hmm, WHOhave set up a sceme to distrubute the vacine fairly, the tarket at the moment to to inoculate 3% of the global population in an unspecified time frame, but as that is1000 of milkions of doeses, a fairly long time id sugest.

america of course hasnt signed up to this, and may well hog the vacine , inxreasing the unspecified time period still further,

mean while our orime minister, has declared that he doesnt bekive a word those american big pharma say and he is having it indepenly trail and tested in the uk, not in so many words, but that the gist. so even if its good, its far from the solution

at leat by the time its available the states will have tested, so the rest of the wolds population isnt out at unnecessary risk, go america,,,

nb thise experts of your arnt in charge as yet

 

[JowGaWolf]

being dependent on lesure and tourism is a bad buisness model at the moment, and thats before the ecomic hit,

I agree. Florida doesn't have income taxes because they are able to make up the taxed revenue through Tourism. If Tourism is dead then the state doesn't get money. I don't think businesses are "Too Big to Fail." The size of a business isn't important. It's how intertwined the business is with other industries. The tourism and hospitality injuries are connected to so many other things. The larger the company is the more connections it has. If Disney goes under then so will many small businesses who benefited from the numerous tourist that visit the state.

So by letting certain Big Businesses fail you will also be destroying many smaller business as well. Everything is connected. Think of it like this. Let's look at biology.

The Heart is too big to fail. It's not that it's too big. The problem is that so many other things are connected to it and depend on the heart. If tourism tanks in Florida then everything that is dependent on Disney to attract visitors will also fail. So it's not just Disney that fails. Other people will fail as a result. Because Florida doesn't have an income tax, Anyone who depends on Tourism to do good to pay for social programs, will also fail. So you have to look at it that way. If you think no one is affected by Disney closing then you have to be able to show that other businesses can survive without Disney.

 

[jobo]

I agree. Florida doesn't have income taxes because they are able to make up the taxed revenue through Tourism. If Tourism is dead then the state doesn't get money. I don't think businesses are "Too Big to Fail." The size of a business isn't important. It's how intertwined the business is with other industries. The tourism and hospitality injuries are connected to so many other things. The larger the company is the more connections it has. If Disney goes under then so will many small businesses who benefited from the numerous tourist that visit the state.

So by letting certain Big Businesses fail you will also be destroying many smaller business as well. Everything is connected. Think of it like this. Let's look at biology.

The Heart is too big to fail. It's not that it's too big. The problem is that so many other things are connected to it and depend on the heart. If tourism tanks in Florida then everything that is dependent on Disney to attract visitors will also fail. So it's not just Disney that fails. Other people will fail as a result. Because Florida doesn't have an income tax, Anyone who depends on Tourism to do good to pay for social programs, will also fail. So you have to look at it that way. If you think no one is affected by Disney closing then you have to be able to show that other businesses can survive without Disney.

thats how recesions work, one bursness goes under and takes the whole supply chain with it

i dont understand the politics of state suvsidies in america, will they piur countless billions in to a private company to keep it afloat? what about all the other lesure and tourism companies, will they be bailed out as well

what about retail companies and car makers, they are all goibgcto go down the tubes , the whole country is goibg broke, where they get the money to bail out them all, ?

 

[JowGaWolf]

i dont understand the politics of state suvsidies in america, will they piur countless billions in to a private company to keep it afloat? what about all the other lesure and tourism companies, will they be bailed out as well

This is the growing issue now. People know that large companies got a bail out. Not all of them but enough of them, So now people are asking "What about about us? When do the little guys get their bail out."

where they get the money to bail out them all, ?

Government Credit card,

I'll be happy once all of the lying and anti-science, and conspiracy movements finally stop. Accurate information is vital to solving any problem or overcoming any challenge.

 

[Steve]

Some great points shared, and some of it is really just a matter of opinion and a reflection of priorities. I'm sure I disagree with some of you and agree with others on these matters, because @jobo, as you and I agreed a while back, the strategy of shut downs etc is debatable. And on a tactical level, even if we agree that shut downs are a good idea, can be debatable. What to shut down, when to shut down, for how long, and with what exceptions. All really important discussions and with a lot of room for valid debate.

But at some point, someone needs to make a decision. We need leaders to pick a strategy and to provide guidelines to lower level government (whether that's the States, Counties, Cities... whatever) to help them make the tactical decisions, and to help citizens understand the plan and why it's important. What I'm most excited about now is that it appears that, first, we have that leadership. President-elect Biden has already taken steps to create his transition team. Second, it appears that the strategy will be informed by experts and not sycophants. Trump nor Biden are experts in this area. But our next president has appointed some actual experts in the area. Third, we need to provide support to the front lines on this. Funding, PPE and other resources and supplies. Listening to the news just this morning, hospitals are already feeling the effects of this latest surge.

And then, lastly, I am hopeful (and maybe even optimistic) that we will have an administration that's serious, who, after this is all over, analyze what worked and didn't work, and put some things into place so that we're better prepared next time. I'm optimistic, because that's exactly what the last administration did. Had our current administration not systematically undone all of that work, we may very well not be in the mess we're in now.

 

[Steve]

Related to my points above, a case in point: Chelsea Clinton today tweeted the following:


https://twitter.com/ChelseaClinton/status/1326890968868589570

And what followed in the comments and responses was a debate about whether that's actually a good idea, whether the USA is similar enough to Germany that it might work, and a lot of respectful disagreement between what appear to be mostly left leaning people.

Point being, there is a lot of room here for reasonable disagreement and differences of opinion. But as with everything, you can't just stand around wringing your hands, paralyzed with indecision (which has been the USA's official policy for the better part of a year now). You have to make a decision, develop a plan, and then be agile enough to adjust based on new information as it becomes available.

 

[jobo]

Related to my points above, a case in point: Chelsea Clinton today tweeted the following:

View attachment 23297
https://twitter.com/ChelseaClinton/status/1326890968868589570

And what followed in the comments and responses was a debate about whether that's actually a good idea, whether the USA is similar enough to Germany that it might work, and a lot of respectful disagreement between what appear to be mostly left leaning people.

Point being, there is a lot of room here for reasonable disagreement and differences of opinion. But as with everything, you can't just stand around wringing your hands, paralyzed with indecision (which has been the USA's official policy for the better part of a year now). You have to make a decision, develop a plan, and then be agile enough to adjust based on new information as it becomes available.

but ANY PLAN is not better than no plan, as there are any number of ways to make the situation worse. as the uk govenment continues to demonstrate

reasonable debate on twitter is definetly not a good base for a plan, i mean is Chelsea on the adviser team?

 

[Steve]

but ANY PLAN is not better than no plan, as there are any number of ways to make the situation worse. as the uk govenment continues to demonstrate

reasonable debate on twitter is definetly not a good base for a plan, i mean is Chelsea on the adviser team?

I think you missed my point, my friend.

 

[jobo]

I think you missed my point, my friend.

no i think i summed it up pretty well, the new guy has a plan so you think all will be well, as iron mike said" everybody has a plan till....... "

 

[Bruce7]

Until the leadership makes covid our nation's one number priority, millions of Americans will not believe how dangerous covid is and will therefore endanger us all.

 

[Bruce7]

The election is over. Covid should not be political now, all Americans should want to do what ever it takes to keep us safe.
How do we keep it from becoming political,
When people of El Paso are dying so fast the refrigerator trucks can not keep up.
The judge is not allowed to shut down restaurants.
Politics is killing people our people.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The election is over. Covid should not be political now, all Americans should want to do what ever it takes to keep us safe.
How do we keep it from becoming political,
When people of El Paso are dying so fast the refrigerator trucks can not keep up.
The judge is not allowed to shut down restaurants.
Politics is killing people our people.

This is simple. When the deaths have touches the lives of those who don't believe, either directly or indirectly. I heard a nurse today cry as she said 4 refrigerator trucks drove up because they knew that's how many people would die this week.

I don't know if this will give you hope, but Georgia used to be one of those places where I could see people not wearing a masks. A lot of times, I would see Hispanics not wearing the masks. I haven't been to the store in a long time, but today. I could tell tell the message and reality is sinking in. Before it was easy to see people without masks. Now I have to look really hard to see someone without a mask. I went to 2 different stores. An international super market where I saw everyone where a mask, and a hardware store where I saw only 2 people not wearing masks. Both were black males who seem to be fit, so my only guess is that they think it wasn't going to affect them as much if they got it.

There is no way the BS can survive, when we are almost getting 200,000 cases of Covid every day. Eventually people are going to hit that wall of reality and politics won't matter anymore. The biggest danger at the moment are those who think "herd immunity" is the answer. If everyone gets sick all at once then there's no one for the virus to infect. The problem is that "herd immunity " doesn't work that way, which is why farmers will kill off live stocks by the hundreds and thousands as a way to address certain disease out breaks. The only thing accomplished by everyone getting sick is that people will die and some will have long lasting effects. Things are always different "when it happens to YOU." Things will get change for the better when some of these knuckle heads join the " It happened to ME" group.

Just keep being safe and protecting yourself. Wear a mask. Don't touch your face when you are out, always have hand sanitizer on hand. Sanitize your hand before you grab the inside of your car. I put sanitizer on wipe the bottle with my wet hands then spray some more on and wipe my hands. If I touch something in my car before cleaning my hands then I'll wipe where I touch. I don't touch my face or rub my eyes when I'm out. I'm a person who had a habit of touching my face, so I broke myself out of that habit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I remember in the original Covid -19 thread that someone thought that a vaccine would be ready in 3 months. That was back in May I think. This stuff is serious. Oh and news break. Covid-19 has mutated again. It is more infectious now than it was before. If I had to guess, it mutated because more younger people were getting it. The virus was having a difficult time multiplying with the younger age group. Viruses only care about reproducing so it makes sense that it would adapt in a way that would make it more infectious. The more people that get sick the more changes it will have to mutate. Everything in life works that way. Organisms adapt to their environment. If life can be found in boiling water next to lava vents, then it should be no surprise that viruses would try to adapt as well.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I remember in the original Covid -19 thread that someone thought that a vaccine would be ready in 3 months. That was back in May I think. This stuff is serious. Oh and news break. Covid-19 has mutated again. It is more infectious now than it was before. If I had to guess, it mutated because more younger people were getting it. The virus was having a difficult time multiplying with the younger age group. Viruses only care about reproducing so it makes sense that it would adapt in a way that would make it more infectious. The more people that get sick the more changes it will have to mutate. Everything in life works that way. Organisms adapt to their environment. If life can be found in boiling water next to lava vents, then it should be no surprise that viruses would try to adapt as well.

I'm less optimistic at this point that people will take it seriously. And I just checked the initial thread..on March 7th, the claim was made that a vaccine would be found within 4 weeks or sooner, and others expressed agreement to that. When you stated you would not trust a vaccine that quickly, that was called pessimistic, and you were assumed to have not read about the virus.

The thread in general is interesting to read. There's another poster in it claiming, again in march, that the virus was media hype and not an epidemic since at that time, it had only killed 20 people, unlike h1n1 which had killed 12,000 over the course of it's spread. Hindsight is 20/20.

Edit: I didn't include names in that, and am not considering anyone wrong for not taking it as seriously before it spread here. I'm included in those people, although by the third week of march I had changed my tune (not sure if I would have so quickly had I not been working in a hospital that got hit hard early).

 

[Michele123]

I haven’t been in here since COVID hit. Hubby & I had suspected COVID right at the start of community spread in our area. It was weird being so weak for so long while our four kids only had mild cold symptoms. Still, the lockdowns were way worse. By the end of them I was asking why I couldn’t have been one of the COVID deaths rather then suffer such a long lasting isolation and see so many small business owners driven to poverty. Now I look around at all the various countries and various approaches to COVID. Everyone is experiencing a surge. I suspect there truly isn’t much that can be done. Anything we do is like trying to keep a hurricane from its path. It sucks but it’s nature taking it’s course and in the end I fear our trying to control it will have caused much greater suffering and death than just working on eating healthy, exercising, and getting that social need met (which actually boosts the immune system). I don’t think anyone or anything will stop it. It will have to burn itself out just the way the Spanish Flu did.

(Yes I wear a mask and have since long before they were mandated. I don’t think it does any good besides make other people feel better and that’s why I do)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[_Simon_]

I haven’t been in here since COVID hit. Hubby & I had suspected COVID right at the start of community spread in our area. It was weird being so weak for so long while our four kids only had mild cold symptoms. Still, the lockdowns were way worse. By the end of them I was asking why I couldn’t have been one of the COVID deaths rather then suffer such a long lasting isolation and see so many small business owners driven to poverty. Now I look around at all the various countries and various approaches to COVID. Everyone is experiencing a surge. I suspect there truly isn’t much that can be done. Anything we do is like trying to keep a hurricane from its path. It sucks but it’s nature taking it’s course and in the end I fear our trying to control it will have caused much greater suffering and death than just working on eating healthy, exercising, and getting that social need met (which actually boosts the immune system). I don’t think anyone or anything will stop it. It will have to burn itself out just the way the Spanish Flu did.

(Yes I wear a mask and have since long before they were mandated. I don’t think it does any good besides make other people feel better and that’s why I do)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great to hear from you Michele123 has been awhile. Whilst I don't agree with some points, I do see where you're coming from. There are pros and cons no matter which approach we take.

I'm very very glad you and your family have recovered and hoping you continue to be okay

 

[_Simon_]

I'm so very sorry you guys in the US are struggling bigtime, hang in there and stay safe.

We just came out our second wave very recently (just in our little state, the rest of Australia were mostly okay). We went from increasing new cases (highest of 725 new cases in a day and many deaths relatively speaking), to absolutely zero new cases and zero deaths for the last 16 days straight. We went through pretty hard lockdown (and many people were not happy about it) and mandatory mask wearing when outside your home, and numbers dropped dramatically.

I really want to say 'if we can do it, you can too', but it may sound a bit cliche and generic. I'm hoping you guys can get there. It truly is a massive group effort, but it's the little things we each do on a daily basis that helps.

Thinking of you all; use everything you've learned in MA training to combat this.

 

[jobo]

The election is over. Covid should not be political now, all Americans should want to do what ever it takes to keep us safe.
How do we keep it from becoming political,
When people of El Paso are dying so fast the refrigerator trucks can not keep up.
The judge is not allowed to shut down restaurants.
Politics is killing people our people.

The election is over. Covid should not be political now, all Americans should want to do what ever it takes to keep us safe.
How do we keep it from becoming political,
When people of El Paso are dying so fast the refrigerator trucks can not keep up.
The judge is not allowed to shut down restaurants.
Politics is killing people our people.

thats a completly meaning less stastic, as it tottally dependent on how many tefrigetated trucks they have

people can always choose not to go to restaurants, as they can generally choose not to do most things

 

[jobo]

This is simple. When the deaths have touches the lives of those who don't believe, either directly or indirectly. I heard a nurse today cry as she said 4 refrigerator trucks drove up because they knew that's how many people would die this week.

I don't know if this will give you hope, but Georgia used to be one of those places where I could see people not wearing a masks. A lot of times, I would see Hispanics not wearing the masks. I haven't been to the store in a long time, but today. I could tell tell the message and reality is sinking in. Before it was easy to see people without masks. Now I have to look really hard to see someone without a mask. I went to 2 different stores. An international super market where I saw everyone where a mask, and a hardware store where I saw only 2 people not wearing masks. Both were black males who seem to be fit, so my only guess is that they think it wasn't going to affect them as much if they got it.

There is no way the BS can survive, when we are almost getting 200,000 cases of Covid every day. Eventually people are going to hit that wall of reality and politics won't matter anymore. The biggest danger at the moment are those who think "herd immunity" is the answer. If everyone gets sick all at once then there's no one for the virus to infect. The problem is that "herd immunity " doesn't work that way, which is why farmers will kill off live stocks by the hundreds and thousands as a way to address certain disease out breaks. The only thing accomplished by everyone getting sick is that people will die and some will have long lasting effects. Things are always different "when it happens to YOU." Things will get change for the better when some of these knuckle heads join the " It happened to ME" group.

Just keep being safe and protecting yourself. Wear a mask. Don't touch your face when you are out, always have hand sanitizer on hand. Sanitize your hand before you grab the inside of your car. I put sanitizer on wipe the bottle with my wet hands then spray some more on and wipe my hands. If I touch something in my car before cleaning my hands then I'll wipe where I touch. I don't touch my face or rub my eyes when I'm out. I'm a person who had a habit of touching my face, so I broke myself out of that habit.

herd inubity will eventually be the answer, as there is nothing else that will stop it, except a vacine whicj is herd imunity by another means,

this is the truth that all the exspwrts know, but they are rekuctant to state publicly for fear of the pokitical fall out

 

[JowGaWolf]

Edit: I didn't include names in that, and am not considering anyone wrong for not taking it as seriously before it spread here. I'm included in those people, although by the third week of march I had changed my tune (not sure if I would have so quickly had I not been working in a hospital that got hit hard early).

I look at it as a lesson to be learned so that it doesn't happen in the future the same way. Hopefully they will share stories with other how the thinking was, how bad, it got, and to give some thing insight on what could have been done to improve the situation.