Martial arts shouldn't take years to learn.

[drop bear]

That line about me saying that the only legitimate people are the Japanese was not supposed to post, I typed it out & left it hanging. This is not the first time this site is doing this; I was still a bit uncertain to make such a bold statement, because that is not true, necessarily, since Westerners can also be legitimate, depending on their teachers, of course. It makes me look like a dingleberry.

Can someone tell me WHY this thing posts whenever I type something, & leave it hanging? (I'm using my mobile).

You make valid points & you are correct, we cannot disregard Mr. Hayes.

I am basing all of my knowledge on hearsay & on what I read.

Thank you for your insight.

It saves your progress. So if you write it and then close the screen it will be there when you come back.

 

[Tarrycat]

It saves your progress. So if you write it and then close the screen it will be there when you come back.

No wonder... . Thank you... I will double-check my messages before I post them.

 

[Buka]

I trained with Hayes a handful of times. Seemed like a nice guy. He did tell great stories, always enjoyable to listen to. I have no idea if what we did was good, or historically correct, because I know less than nothing about the subject matter. But it was a lot of fun.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I trained with Hayes a handful of times. Seemed like a nice guy. He did tell great stories, always enjoyable to listen to. I have no idea if what we did was good, or historically correct, because I know less than nothing about the subject matter. But it was a lot of fun.

He's definitely a good storyteller.

 

[Tarrycat]

I trained with Hayes a handful of times. Seemed like a nice guy. He did tell great stories, always enjoyable to listen to. I have no idea if what we did was good, or historically correct, because I know less than nothing about the subject matter. But it was a lot of fun.

I think when you're very experienced in Ninjutsu, you will definitely know the difference between what is real & what isn't. Unfortunately, I, just like you, wouldn't know the difference either. I'm still a lost fart in a s*** storm, to be honest...

It's good to hear that your experience with him was enjoyable.

It's just, my antennas tend to go crazy when credible & very experienced teachers on here say things, because obviously they know what they're talking about. I place a lot of value on their opinions, especially Chris'. He knows the art so well, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a Samurai in his previous life...

Thank you for sharing your experience*

 

[Tarrycat]

He's definitely a good storyteller.

 

[Buka]

He's definitely a good storyteller.

Indeed. My favorite was "A Samurai, a Shogunate and a Rabbi walk into an Irish bar.."

Man, talk about a knee slapper.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

Sure, and add a couple kicks, it's all icing on the cake. But. One of that is strictly necessary

i never said there was anything magic or secret about it. I only say it is a useful training tool.

That you don't understand that, and don't have the training to know how it works, does not change the fact.

Oh, but I do know all about bunkai. It's an outdated way of doing things, IMO.

Here's food for thought: Why did traditional martial arts stop evolving? The great masters in history always welcomed new approaches and techniques. Heck, Funakoshi Gichin decided that the "old style" of kata sucked and stopped teaching it because his students had concluded this and he agreed.

PS

The innovative spirit of the great masters has vanished.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

Horse-crap.

The early Tudor era ranking system for English Martial Arts through the Company of Maisters required SEVEN (7) YEARS between tests. Start off as a "Scholar" and train for 7 years before you could be considered for testing at Free Scholar.

Masters of Defense of London
Company of Masters - Wikipedia

Well, the whole concept is quite silly, in my opinion. Kano began studying the martial arts at age 18 and developed Judo a decade later. Bruce Lee only had five years of formal training before he left for the US. A lot of the 19th and 18th-century masters started training in early adulthood and had superceeded their teachers within several years.

Maybe people just put too much emphasis on "deep meanings" and other hokey religious nonsense.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

I used to feel the same, but not that it was a waste of time, more that the training is inefficient to the goal of fighting.

I realised that most traditionalists aren't training to fight, they are training to do "x" art. Also most TMA contain much more than one needs to kickbox and many have a different focus to ring fighting.

Basically there is a lot of nuance to be considered when comparing any aspect of different martial arts, not least of all is would those people training TMA still be training if it was rejigged towards ring fighting?

I don't care about ring fighting. I care about self-defense. If someone wishes to divorce self-defense fron martial arts, then they ought to take up buddhist ballet.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, the whole concept is quite silly, in my opinion. Kano began studying the martial arts at age 18 and developed Judo a decade later. Bruce Lee only had five years of formal training before he left for the US. A lot of the 19th and 18th-century masters started training in early adulthood and had superceeded their teachers within several years.

Maybe people just put too much emphasis on "deep meanings" and other hokey religious nonsense.

There will always be exceptions. There are people who, with little or no training, can play nearly any piano piece after a single hearing (with no sheet music). That is not an indicator that piano shouldn't take years to learn.

But let's go back and look at those two examples. How much did Kano train in those 10 years? And did he have exceptional teachers? And what was his movement like before he started that training?

Bruce Lee was physically exceptional, and exceptionally driven. There are also some who say some of his ideas of WC were underdeveloped.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't care about ring fighting. I care about self-defense. If someone wishes to divorce self-defense fron martial arts, then they ought to take up buddhist ballet.

Okay, so you'd then need to define the level of effectiveness you're talking about in the OP. If you mean the ability to defend against a wild-swinging, unskilled, angry goober, I can get someone there in a few months if they are reasonably athletic and at least moderately aggressive by nature. Give me someone with poor coordination and low aggression, and even that may take a couple of years.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The innovative spirit of the great masters has vanished.

Not in the least. There are plenty of innovators (BJJ appears to have quite a few). The issue is too many instructors believing things should stay where the founder (or some other past master) last put them, as if a) that person were perfect, and b) that person had gotten things exactly where he/she wanted them and would never have changed them again. He former is a fallacy, and the latter is exceedingly unlikely.

 

[jobo]

I don't care about ring fighting. I care about self-defense. If someone wishes to divorce self-defense fron martial arts, then they ought to take up buddhist ballet.

I've made much the same point, if you cant,BETTER defend yourself after learning ma, they there is something wrong with either you or it.

but after that its very difficult to define or test, as there is no standard maist and no standard attacker.

but if you apply a statistical approach, then 80 % of the male adult population isn't very fit ie strong, fast good cardio and balance and reactions. In fact 50% of them are notably unfit. If you are up there, in the top 20 30 40 % of the population. Then skills associated with say a yellow belt, should be more than adequate to defend yourself against the vast majority of people, so that's a year max .

if your lacking in the. Fitness department and come up against someone who is not lacking, then you will have a problem no matter how long you have been studying

 

[lklawson]

Here's food for thought: Why did traditional martial arts stop evolving?

Who says they stopped evolving? Change is still occurring even in "traditional" arts, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

The great masters in history always welcomed new approaches and techniques.

Sez who? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. And who gets to decide what constitutes a "great master?"

Heck, Funakoshi Gichin decided that the "old style" of kata sucked and stopped teaching it because his students had concluded this and he agreed.

That's not the story I heard.

The innovative spirit of the great masters has vanished.

It's exactly the same as the way Mimbari souls were being lost to humanity. To whit, a fantasy.

 

[lklawson]

Well, the whole concept is quite silly, in my opinion.

Which is that? Where you suggested that "This whole 'years to master' philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts." That part? I agree, it's silly (and wrong) to believe that it was somehow "unique to East Asian martial arts." Heck, it's not even unique to martial arts.

Kano began studying the martial arts at age 18 and developed Judo a decade later. Bruce Lee only had five years of formal training before he left for the US. A lot of the 19th and 18th-century masters started training in early adulthood and had superceeded their teachers within several years.

Maybe people just put too much emphasis on "deep meanings" and other hokey religious nonsense.

You're kinda struggling to string this all together.

 

[DaveB]

I don't care about ring fighting. I care about self-defense. If someone wishes to divorce self-defense fron martial arts, then they ought to take up buddhist ballet.

Then I disagree. TMA are reasonably efficient for self defence when you consider that the training is general and not tailored.

General tma training is used to build coordination and fitness as well as skill.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh, but I do know all about bunkai. It's an outdated way of doing things, IMO.

Here's food for thought: Why did traditional martial arts stop evolving? The great masters in history always welcomed new approaches and techniques. Heck, Funakoshi Gichin decided that the "old style" of kata sucked and stopped teaching it because his students had concluded this and he agreed.

PS

The innovative spirit of the great masters has vanished.

Ok. I guess you have the answers. It makes no nevermind to me.

I'm just not in the mood to argue with a troll. Have a good life.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

Which is that? Where you suggested that "This whole 'years to master' philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts." That part? I agree, it's silly (and wrong) to believe that it was somehow "unique to East Asian martial arts." Heck, it's not even unique to martial arts.

You're kinda struggling to string this all together.

Well, as a Japanese American, I can tell you that some things in my culture are more tradition than logic. This applies to martial arts, too. But what's most annoying is when non-Japanese fetishize Japanese martial arts culture and get all 80s-karate-kid weird about it.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

Then I disagree. TMA are reasonably efficient for self defence when you consider that the training is general and not tailored.

General tma training is used to build coordination and fitness as well as skill.

You don't disagree. This is what I said.