Martial Arts in prison

[Saheim]

I am not a big fan of the whole - Martial Arts to develop discipline and self control thing. Personally I think discipline and self control are prerequisites for martial arts. I look at a skill set that involves unarmed combat the way I do any other "weapon". I would not break out the handgun to teach someone how to be responsible. Until they had shown me they already are, I'm not teaching them how to use a pistol. Which is really what this idea sounds like, to me - let's get some shotguns and teach inmates the sport of skeet.

On a semi related note - communication between separate rec yards was prohibited at my facility. An educational group came in and offered a sign language class. Fureal?!?!

 

[mrt2]

Yeah... it's not like giving violent criminals a chance to punch each other without consequences could be a problem...

I represent accused criminals, and not all convicted criminals are violent.

 

[Martial D]

I represent accused criminals, and not all convicted criminals are violent.

Or even guilty.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the, t teachings are what's in the book which most them read , is they insist the word id God
if the bible says the,stoning. Of adulterers is the thing to do then that the teaching of that religion, you can't pick a d choose which of gods words to follow,

Those are things that can be taught. But I've never seen them taught. If it's not taught, it's not a teaching, unless you know a different way to define that term.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am not a big fan of the whole - Martial Arts to develop discipline and self control thing. Personally I think discipline and self control are prerequisites for martial arts. I look at a skill set that involves unarmed combat the way I do any other "weapon". I would not break out the handgun to teach someone how to be responsible. Until they had shown me they already are, I'm not teaching them how to use a pistol. Which is really what this idea sounds like, to me - let's get some shotguns and teach inmates the sport of skeet.

On a semi related note - communication between separate rec yards was prohibited at my facility. An educational group came in and offered a sign language class. Fureal?!?!

Martial arts, like any long-term organized physical activity, require doing things you don't want to at that moment, as well as following through with effort. Those are things that actually build discipline, which is not a fixed characteristic. I've seen many people come into martial arts with low discipline. Those would could manage just enough discipline to keep coming to classes for a while more often than not developed more discipline pretty quickly.

Same happens with many sports.

 

[jobo]

Those are things that can be taught. But I've never seen them taught. If it's not taught, it's not a teaching, unless you know a different way to define that term.

Wells yes I think I have , a Religions" teachings are what arE what is contained in their holy book
now you can say that those teaching are not tought , but you would be wrong, adulterers are being stoned_witches are being executed and homosexuals hanged and children's genitals mutilated pd all over the world, on the teachings of one religion or Another
it's very American to think the world ends at your shoreline Though wasn't there some religious types that knocked over the towers ?????? then their was James town

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I think there have been a few prison gangs to try and formalise a training program for their members in regards to fighting, just to highlight the futility of trying to restrict knowledge of a base of people from any background. (something i just thought of) I think it was a strictly prision gang im thinking of.

addition to my orgiinal post, i think a structered enviroment people with aggression can vent it would help reduce their violent tendancies. (some anyway)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wells yes I think I have , a Religions" teachings are what arE what is contained in their holy book
now you can say that those teaching are not tought , but you would be wrong, adulterers are being stoned_witches are being executed and homosexuals hanged and children's genitals mutilated pd all over the world, on the teachings of one religion or Another
it's very American to think the world ends at your shoreline Though wasn't there some religious types that knocked over the towers ?????? then their was James town

Here's my point in the distinction: I can pick up any book and teach something from it. If I don't use another part of that book, it's not part of my teaching. Whether that applies to religion depends how you view religion, I think.

 

[Martial D]

I think there have been a few prison gangs to try and formalise a training program for their members in regards to fighting, just to highlight the futility of trying to restrict knowledge of a base of people from any background. (something i just thought of) I think it was a strictly prision gang im thinking of.

addition to my orgiinal post, i think a structered enviroment people with aggression can vent it would help reduce their violent tendancies. (some anyway)

 

[jobo]

Here's my point in the distinction: I can pick up any book and teach something from it. If I don't use another part of that book, it's not part of my teaching. Whether that applies to religion depends how you view religion, I think.

A book contains the teAching of the author,( or god) they are and remain " teAchings," if you read them or not, as it is the worse parts of various religious books are tought extensively round the world, though perhaps not in texas, though I wouldn't be at all suprised if they just wait for you to leave before they do so

 

[Rabbitthekitten]

Religion is boring. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Saheim]

Martial arts, like any long-term organized physical activity, require doing things you don't want to at that moment, as well as following through with effort. Those are things that actually build discipline, which is not a fixed characteristic. I've seen many people come into martial arts with low discipline. Those would could manage just enough discipline to keep coming to classes for a while more often than not developed more discipline pretty quickly.

Same happens with many sports.

Yea, I can see what you're saying but MAYBE MA doesn't build discipline so much as build UPON existing discipline. I know it sounds like symantics but think of the high drop out rate. Folks who just didn't have that weird thing inside them we seem to. Now, with random folks off the street, I see know problem using MA to find out if that does already live in the core of them so that it be dug out and honed. However we are talking about folks who have already shown issues with impulse control. So (not yo sound too judgemental but) they're below random. I mean their "score" is in the negatives. Once they get back up to "zero" (random) then yea, roll the dice. Sorry but I would have to see improvement BEFORE aiding them in violence. Which, as far as I am concerned, is EXACTLY what true MA is - it is honing your ability to do violence. While that word has negative connotations, it is not a negative thing. There are plenty of times violence is the most ethically appropriate course of action. Kind of like fire - ya can use it to cook food for your family, you can use it to burn the neighbors house down, and I'm not trying to give matches to people with a track record of criminal behavior UNTIL change is observed. Now, there's an idea - an MA program for inmates under strict conditions like 60 days without ONE write up and AFTER GED is earned. I guess maybe the answer lies somewhere between my original hard line stance and the hug a thug approach

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A book contains the teAching of the author,( or god) they are and remain " teAchings," if you read them or not, as it is the worse parts of various religious books are tought extensively round the world, though perhaps not in texas, though I wouldn't be at all suprised if they just wait for you to leave before they do so

You're talking about what's in the book, still. I'm talking about what people actually teach. Those are two different things.

As for waiting for me to leave, they'd have had to wait about 12 years in one of those denominations. Probably not what happened.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yea, I can see what you're saying but MAYBE MA doesn't build discipline so much as build UPON existing discipline. I know it sounds like symantics but think of the high drop out rate. Folks who just didn't have that weird thing inside them we seem to. Now, with random folks off the street, I see know problem using MA to find out if that does already live in the core of them so that it be dug out and honed. However we are talking about folks who have already shown issues with impulse control. So (not yo sound too judgemental but) they're below random. I mean their "score" is in the negatives. Once they get back up to "zero" (random) then yea, roll the dice. Sorry but I would have to see improvement BEFORE aiding them in violence. Which, as far as I am concerned, is EXACTLY what true MA is - it is honing your ability to do violence. While that word has negative connotations, it is not a negative thing. There are plenty of times violence is the most ethically appropriate course of action. Kind of like fire - ya can use it to cook food for your family, you can use it to burn the neighbors house down, and I'm not trying to give matches to people with a track record of criminal behavior UNTIL change is observed. Now, there's an idea - an MA program for inmates under strict conditions like 60 days without ONE write up and AFTER GED is earned. I guess maybe the answer lies somewhere between my original hard line stance and the hug a thug approach

There's reasonable evidence (outside martial arts/sports) that discipline is a skill that can be built. There's an advantage to those who have it early (which either hints at a genetic component, or that the juvenile brain's development is a powerful component), but it can be built. And activities that require discipline are how it is built. Very similar concept to how muscle is built.

 

[JR 137]

We can talk rehabilitation all we want. Let’s just say there’s a great way to rehabilitate inmates and get them ready for life on the outside once their sentence is up. There are also many inmates who genuinely want to straighten out, leave their past behind, and start over once they’re released. So you’ve got these people who have been rehabilitated and want nothing more than living a normal and productive life once they step outside the prison.

What are they going to do? Who’s going to hire them? My father owns an auto repair shop, as do his brothers. A few friends own businesses of different types. None of them are going to hire a guy who just got out. Is anyone in their right mind going to hire a person who did a 10 year stretch for something like armed robbery?

There are quite a few people on here who own their own dojo, other business, or are in a position to hire employees. Forget about legalities that may apply to your particular job for a minute, such as no felons working around kids, sex offender hiring laws, etc.; are you going to take a chance on someone who’s just been released? Are you going to hire someone who’s been out a few years? Be honest. You don’t have to type an answer here, but be honest with yourself. Again, assuming you could legally hire the person.

I wouldn’t either.

So now you’ve got someone who’s been rehabilitated and looking to do an honest job for honest money. And they can’t find anything. To quote Rage Against The Machine - “Hungry people don’t stay hungry for long.” With no job prospects, no money in their pockets, and no food on the table, what are they going to do? Resorting to what they know may not be what they want, but if it’s the only way, then it’ll have to do until something comes along.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We can talk rehabilitation all we want. Let’s just say there’s a great way to rehabilitate inmates and get them ready for life on the outside once their sentence is up. There are also many inmates who genuinely want to straighten out, leave their past behind, and start over once they’re released. So you’ve got these people who have been rehabilitated and want nothing more than living a normal and productive life once they step outside the prison.

What are they going to do? Who’s going to hire them? My father owns an auto repair shop, as do his brothers. A few friends own businesses of different types. None of them are going to hire a guy who just got out. Is anyone in their right mind going to hire a person who did a 10 year stretch for something like armed robbery?

There are quite a few people on here who own their own dojo, other business, or are in a position to hire employees. Forget about legalities that may apply to your particular job for a minute, such as no felons working around kids, sex offender hiring laws, etc.; are you going to take a chance on someone who’s just been released? Are you going to hire someone who’s been out a few years? Be honest. You don’t have to type an answer here, but be honest with yourself. Again, assuming you could legally hire the person.

I wouldn’t either.

So now you’ve got someone who’s been rehabilitated and looking to do an honest job for honest money. And they can’t find anything. To quote Rage Against The Machine - “Hungry people don’t stay hungry for long.” With no job prospects, no money in their pockets, and no food on the table, what are they going to do? Resorting to what they know may not be what they want, but if it’s the only way, then it’ll have to do until something comes along.

Part of rehabilitation is finding at least a partial solution to this side of the problem, as well.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

What are they going to do? Who’s going to hire them? My father owns an auto repair shop, as do his brothers. A few friends own businesses of different types. None of them are going to hire a guy who just got out. Is anyone in their right mind going to hire a person who did a 10 year stretch for something like armed robbery?

Isnt it a protected employment characteristic? You cant not hire somone because of their criminal record? (i know exceptions exist)

Personally, i wouldn't have a issue hiring one. (its probably cheap labour anyway that you can get away with paying minimum wage for)

 

[JR 137]

Part of rehabilitation is finding at least a partial solution to this side of the problem, as well.

Are they finding jobs they can start once they’re released?

Job training and education while they’re in is all fine and good on paper. Preparing for interviews, teaching how to search for jobs, how to be professional at work, and so on is good too.

But what’s any of that worth if no one’s going to hire them? Let’s say a violent criminal guy gets a Ph.D in prison; is it worth more than the cost of the paper it’s printed on? Who’s going to hire a former drug trafficker with a violent past? There are plenty of people looking for work without any of that type of baggage.

I like to think I’m a compassionate guy who’d give someone a chance, but I’m not THAT compassionate. Sorry, but my hypothetical business and employees’ safety are far more important than being a good guy and giving someone like that the benefit of the doubt.

 

[JR 137]

Isnt it a protected employment characteristic? You cant not hire somone because of their criminal record? (i know exceptions exist)

Personally, i wouldn't have a issue hiring one. (its probably cheap labour anyway that you can get away with paying minimum wage for)

Maybe there’s a law saying you can’t discriminate against them. But I don’t think it would be too difficult justifying hiring someone else over them. You could cite breaks in employment, no revelant work experience in the last however many years, etc. Put another way - you’ve got 10 people applying for the same job. They’ve all been working in the field for 10 years, except for one guy who hasn’t worked for the last 5 years. They’ve all got equal qualifications. Is it that hard to say it had nothing to do with his crime and it was based solely on current work experience?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are they finding jobs they can start once they’re released?

Job training and education while they’re in is all fine and good on paper. Preparing for interviews, teaching how to search for jobs, how to be professional at work, and so on is good too.

But what’s any of that worth if no one’s going to hire them? Let’s say a violent criminal guy gets a Ph.D in prison; is it worth more than the cost of the paper it’s printed on? Who’s going to hire a former drug trafficker with a violent past? There are plenty of people looking for work without any of that type of baggage.

I like to think I’m a compassionate guy who’d give someone a chance, but I’m not THAT compassionate. Sorry, but my hypothetical business and employees’ safety are far more important than being a good guy and giving someone like that the benefit of the doubt.

That's what I mean. Helping someone have the necessary skills isn't useful if nobody will hire them. Mind you, if we actually rehabilitated more criminals, there would be less reason NOT to hire them. There are private programs that have shown amazing results with felons directly out of prison. Give them enough valid work experience, and more jobs will open up for them. Of course, it's unlikely we'll ever reach an ideal state where a rehabilitated felon gets the same treatment as someone who never committed a felony, but we can do better.