Mapping Yang Family Taijiquan's Sequences to Chen Family Taijiquan

Teapot

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I have been curious about the evolution of Chen Style to Yang Style. I have my observations as to how the sequences correspond to one another between the two styles, and I welcome others to chime in on their perspectives. But to start things off, it appears that Yang's Grasp the Sparrow's Tail is a simplification of three consecutive sequences from Chen.

Ln qu癡 wi (Grasp the Sparrows Tail) - corresponds onto Chen's J蘋ngng do du穫 (Jingang (arhat) pounds mortar), Ln zh y蘋 (Lazily tying robe), and Li羅 fng s穫 b穫 (Six sealing four closing).

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Ordinarily, Jingang Dao Dui would finish the sequence with a Zhen Jiao:
1698968945130.png
Then Chen would continue with Lan Zha Yi.

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In the above image, Chen's Lan Zha Yi steps to the right and does Peng with their hands together just like Yang Style. But to finish Lan Zha Yi, the hands then split (Lie) apart. Meanwhile, Yang Style skips this part and continues with (Lu) as shown below which is where Chen's Liu Feng Si Bi begins.

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Before finishing by pressing with their palms - (An), Chen would split (Lie) their hands apart and express their elbow (Zhou) at the opponent which Yang skips over.

Interestingly, Yang has a sequence known as Apparent Closing (R繳 fng sh穫 b穫). "R繳 fng sh穫 b穫" sounds a lot like Chen's "Li羅 fng s穫 b穫" (Lazily tying robe). This makes me wonder if there were pronunciation errors in transmitting the names which caused the slight change in meaning. Although the sequence that corresponds to Chen Style is actually Two Hands Push (Shuang Tuishou) - it's still a variation of Li羅 fng s穫 b穫.

Another example would be Yang's Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain (Bo H Gu蘋 Shn) which sounds a lot like Chen's Cover Head Push Mountain (Bo T籀u Tu蘋 Shn). The two sequences correspond to one another in the forms, and their Chinese names sound pretty close to one another.

Another interesting note is that Yang's White Snake Spits Tongue (B獺ish矇 T X穫n) exists in Chen's second form - Er Lu - at least in terms of the name.

Likewise, Yang's Flying Diagonal (Xi矇 Fi Sh穫) is their version of Chen's Jump Step Slanted Flying (Yu癡 B羅 Xi矇 Fi) which is found in Er Lu.

Do you think this hints at Yang Luchan having learned Er Lu? Because these two names don't exist in Chen's first form, but they do exist in their second form.
 

Xue Sheng

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The problem you have with tracing this is there are no pictures, or videos of what Yang Luchan did, or Yang Banhou, or Yang Jianhou or Yang Shaohou did as Yang style. All we really have is what Yang Chengfu did, and what he did when he was young is not the same as what he did later.

And Yang Chengfu did change the family style. There is also a possibility that his father Yang Jianhou had changed it a little before it even got to Yang Chengfu.
 
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Teapot

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you might take a glance at this old chen form


I've seen that video before. But, in my view, it's a very crude and external representative of Chen Style.

On both the form and application side, it's as if he's practicing Taijiquan through the lens of Bajiquan.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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The problem you have with tracing this is there are no pictures, or videos of what Yang Luchan did, or Yang Banhou, or Yang Jianhou or Yang Shaohou did as Yang style. All we really have is what Yang Chengfu did, and what he did when he was young is not the same as what he did later.

And Yang Chengfu did change the family style. There is also a possibility that his father Yang Jianhou had changed it a little before it even got to Yang Chengfu.
My Sigung trained with Yang Chengfu the year before Yang Chengfu died. My Sigung did not have anything very positive to say about his execution of the form at that time.
 
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My Sigung trained with Yang Chengfu the year before Yang Chengfu died. My Sigung did not have anything very positive to say about his execution of the form at that time.
That's interesting. Did your Sigung have a background in Taijiquan before meeting Yang Chengfu?
 

Xue Sheng

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My Sigung trained with Yang Chengfu the year before Yang Chengfu died. My Sigung did not have anything very positive to say about his execution of the form at that time.
Interesting, my shigong (Tung Ying Chieh) trained with Yang Chengfu for many years and I never heard anything negative from my Shifu when we discussed Yang Chengfu

That's interesting. Did your Sigung have a background in Taijiquan before meeting Yang Chengfu?
My Shigong did, Hao style prior to Yang style
 

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That's interesting. Did your Sigung have a background in Taijiquan before meeting Yang Chengfu?
Yes. He was brought there by a friend of his who was a student of Yang Chengfu. He was a teenager at the time. He began his training in martial arts as a child, specifically Yang style Tai Chi Chuan with his uncle. He was beaten badly by a Hung Gar student and began training with the teacher of that student. He went on to train with several greats of that era. To be fair, he rarely offered praise of anyone at all, with a very few exceptions.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Interesting, my shigong (Tung Ying Chieh) trained with Yang Chengfu for many years and I never heard anything negative from my Shifu when we discussed Yang Chengfu


My Shigong did, Hao style prior to Yang style
My Sigung was as hard as a coffin nail with critiques, so take it with a grain of salt. What he said of Yang Chengfu was that he didnt like what Yang Chengfu had done with the form, and that he was fat and just pushed his students around. The whole reason I mentioned it is because someone said Yang Chengfu had changed the form somewhat and that was implied by my Sigung as well.
 

Xue Sheng

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My Sigung was as hard as a coffin nail with critiques, so take it with a grain of salt. What he said of Yang Chengfu was that he didnt like what Yang Chengfu had done with the form, and that he was fat and just pushed his students around. The whole reason I mentioned it is because someone said Yang Chengfu had changed the form somewhat and that was implied by my Sigung as well.
I said that, and it is pretty well known he changed it.

Also, per my shifu, Yang Chengfu had some regret about that and wanted a form with more fajin and was in discussion with Tung Ying Chieh about that, but died before working on the actual form. Tung Ying Chieh took the discussions and developed a fast form he called the Yang fast form, He later developed another fast form that was based on his Yang and Hao styles and called that The Tung fast form.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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My Sigung trained with Yang Chengfu the year before Yang Chengfu died. My Sigung did not have anything very positive to say about his execution of the form at that time.
One day my teacher and Li Jing-Lin walked in the park while Yang Chengfu was teaching his Taiji class. Li told my teacher, "Look, Yang Chengfu is cheating on his students again." Yang Chengfu stopped teaching in that park and died a couple years later. One of the major reasons that Yang Chengfu's death was because Li didn't allow him to teach in the park anymore.

I asked my teacher why Li said Yang Chengfu was cheating on his students. My teacher said that Li told him the Taiji Yang Chengfu was teaching was different from the Taiji that Li learned from Yang Jianhou (Yang Luchan's third son).

 

Kung Fu Wang

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Wing Woo Gar

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I said that, and it is pretty well known he changed it.

Also, per my shifu, Yang Chengfu had some regret about that and wanted a form with more fajin and was in discussion with Tung Ying Chieh about that, but died before working on the actual form. Tung Ying Chieh took the discussions and developed a fast form he called the Yang fast form, He later developed another fast form that was based on his Yang and Hao styles and called that The Tung fast form.
Very interesting history, thank you.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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One day my teacher and Li Jing-Lin walked in the park while Yang Chengfu was teaching his Taiji class. Li told my teacher, "Look, Yang Chengfu is cheating on his students again." Yang Chengfu stopped teaching in that park and died a couple years later. One of the major reasons that Yang Chengfu's death was because Li didn't allow him to teach in the park anymore.

I asked my teacher why Li said Yang Chengfu was cheating on his students. My teacher said that Li told him the Taiji Yang Chengfu was teaching was different from the Taiji that Li learned from Yang Jianhou (Yang Luchan's third son).

Thank you for sharing this.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I like this guy's Taiji a lot. I have always believed that Taiji should be like this.

I like the quality of his movement. I dont feel qualified to say more.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Thank you for sharing this.
My teacher told me that there were 2 secrets in Chinese history that he might be the only few persons who knew it. One of the secrets is Yang Chengfu's death. The other is Wang Jingwei was not a traitor.

 
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