Machida knocks out Evans - UFC 98 Results

[Odin]

Agreed, however I do think Machida's Karate base adds much more to this than you have indicated.

That would be because IMO the karate base that Machida has is not something that I believe is effective in MMA, now I know what everyone will say..''how can you say that considering machida is the champion'' well because of what I said before about machida's timing and distancing, if he didn’t have these I don’t think his style would be very effective, I mean his kicks are quick but because of that way he throws them they lack power compared to the muay thai kick, his hands are quite low in his karate stance, when he is at a distance throwing his shots this in fine but even in the Evans fight when Evans got inside he made machida pay until machida could back up again, this is a weakness that will be exploited.

The point being though is that MACHIDA makes karate work in the octagon, it can hardly be used as a template for MMA like Muay thai and boxing are since unless your machida your proberly going to find your going to come up short.

 

[Tez3]

It terms of real life self defense, it most certainly is.



MMA as discussed here, is for competition.




No one ever said an athlete training for competition couldn't defend themselves. Quite obviously they could be a force to reckon with. However as FearlessFreep pointed out so well, to excel in a sporting competition, other aspects of your training will suffer. I see it at our school. The guys who sign up for the boxing/bjj/Muay Thai classes that come as an MMA package will occasionally turn up in the Kenpo/FMA classes. They spar well one on one. They have no clue what do when we run multiple attacker drills, knife and stick work, firearm drills etc. Why would they? They don't train for it.



I don't know. I know how often I do.



Fortunately for me, I have many life experiences and an early career choice that allows me to know this without any doubt or question. Most competetive athletes however, can't answer the question outside the "cage".

No, MMA is competition full stop. It isn't trained for self defence. SELF DEFENCE is trained for SELF DEFENCE.

We have MMA classes and we have self defence classes. The techniques in self defence are tweaked to make them work in the ring/cage and most fighters I know can defend themselves in the street, many are doormen, police officers or live lives that entail being able to defend themselves. We don't have full time MMA fighters here, everyone has other jobs.
MMA is for competition so why keep saying it's not good for self defence?

 

[jks9199]

That would be because IMO the karate base that Machida has is not something that I believe is effective in MMA, now I know what everyone will say..''how can you say that considering machida is the champion'' well because of what I said before about machida's timing and distancing, if he didn’t have these I don’t think his style would be very effective, I mean his kicks are quick but because of that way he throws them they lack power compared to the muay thai kick, his hands are quite low in his karate stance, when he is at a distance throwing his shots this in fine but even in the Evans fight when Evans got inside he made machida pay until machida could back up again, this is a weakness that will be exploited.

The point being though is that MACHIDA makes karate work in the octagon, it can hardly be used as a template for MMA like Muay thai and boxing are since unless your machida your proberly going to find your going to come up short.

I think you're making a rather big assumption that his kicks lack power because they aren't Muay Thai style kicks. There are other ways to generate power that can be equally effective.

 

[CoryKS]

It was a great fight, Machida looked great. One constant in his matches is that the crowd starts booing because he doesn't just wade in and start swinging. He's very patient. I took a friend to see the fight who is new to the sport and he kept saying, "Come on! This is boring!" I said, "No, just wait." Sure enough, Machida waited for the right moment and took Evans out. I enjoy his fights, but he can be frustrating for those who are looking for a brawl.

 

[Odin]

I think you're making a rather big assumption that his kicks lack power because they aren't Muay Thai style kicks. There are other ways to generate power that can be equally effective.

I agree there are ways other ways to generate power but just not as much as a muay thai kick, science and body machanics have shown this….Machida's kicks are snappy, this makes them hard to telegraph but are clearly not as powerful since he does not throw his weight into the strike…….the way he leans back as he kicks takes further power out of them.

 

[Tez3]

This is off topic but actually there was an amateur MMA practitioner the other day in Detroit that was attacked by 4 guys and successfully defended him self and bloodied up the 4 guys without much problem. So it definitely works for self defense.

Of course it works for self defence but thats not it's purpose.

 

[FearlessFreep]

"the way he leans back as he kicks takes further power out of them."

He doesn't lean back, he drives his hips forward. So what you see is his head behind his shoulders behind his hips, but that's not because he's leaning back it's because his hips are coming forward, which is what allowed him to hit from outside Evans range.

You lose power if you lean back. You gain power if you thrust forward.

Watch his quick stutter step before his kicks, he's driving his whole body forward into the kick.

 

[Odin]

Of course it works for self defence but thats not it's purpose.

You know what always amazes me about Martialtalk........how no matter what the topic is every single thread in the MMA section has someone somewhere saying ''ITS JUST A SPORT''.......i think even if we did start a thread entitled ''best hair cut in MMA'' the second post would be ''i really liked diego sanchez's curly locks...BUT its just a sport, it wouldnt work in the REAL world''

I think there comes a time when we all need to get over it, theres actually about 15 threads in this section on this topic, even more if you count the ones without ''mma for self defence'' in the title....i dont think theres anything that can be said on either side that is going to change anyones mind.

 

[Odin]

"the way he leans back as he kicks takes further power out of them."

He doesn't lean back, he drives his hips forward. So what you see is his head behind his shoulders behind his hips, but that's not because he's leaning back it's because his hips are coming forward, which is what allowed him to hit from outside Evans range.

You lose power if you lean back. You gain power if you thrust forward.

Watch his quick stutter step before his kicks, he's driving his whole body forward into the kick.

That would be true for front kicks since its similar to the way you gain power for a muay thai knee, but for legs/body/head kicks that come across a horizontal axis power is lost since weight is taken away from with backward motion.

 

[Tez3]

You know what always amazes me about Martialtalk........how no matter what the topic is every single thread in the MMA section has someone somewhere saying ''ITS JUST A SPORT''.......i think even if we did start a thread entitled ''best hair cut in MMA'' the second post would be ''i really liked diego sanchez's curly locks...BUT its just a sport, it wouldnt work in the REAL world''

I think there comes a time when we all need to get over it, theres actually about 15 threads in this section on this topic, even more if you count the ones without ''mma for self defence'' in the title....i dont think theres anything that can be said on either side that is going to change anyones mind.

For crying out loud I'm not saying it won't work in the real world it does, what I'm tired of people thinking there's more to it than there is and criticising it on that basis. 'Oh it's not real karate/MT/TKD' etc etc ad nauseum.
Why do people keep bringing up the old 'it won't work in real life rubbish' see it for what it is.... a sport.
Those of us who train, coach, fight and ref MMA know it for what it is so I guess it doesn't really matter how much people look down their noses at us!

 

[Odin]

For crying out loud I'm not saying it won't work in the real world it does, what I'm tired of people thinking there's more to it than there is and criticising it on that basis. 'Oh it's not real karate/MT/TKD' etc etc ad nauseum.
Why do people keep bringing up the old 'it won't work in real life rubbish' see it for what it is.... a sport.
Those of us who train, coach, fight and ref MMA know it for what it is so I guess it doesn't really matter how much people look down their noses at us!

yep I know, its frustrating.....and it seems that you cant actually have a conversation about MMA on this site without having this debate every other post.

It kinda makes me want to just post on MMA forums, it doesnt look much like we co-exist on here too well....and i must say its not really mma'ers that seem to have the problem.

 

[FearlessFreep]

FWIW - Tez, I was not attempting to criticize MMA, I was only reflecting on what happens at the elite levels of competition of an activity and how that relates back to the original goals of the activity itself.

 

[FearlessFreep]

"power is lost since weight is taken away from with backward motion."

It's not a backward motion. Even the horizontal roundhouse kick, both Muy Thai style and TKD/Karate style are forward motions.

Yes, at a beginner level, that style of kick is done with a backward motion because in the mechanics of it all it's easier to keep your pivot foot semi-in-place and you are thus leaning back. But when you are doing that kick for power, it's definitely a forward motion, not a backward motion.

I train both kicks, they are both powerful. They are powerful in different ways. Mechanically speaking, though, down properly for power, they both involve forward momentum of the body weight into the target, not "backward motion"

 

[Steve]

For crying out loud I'm not saying it won't work in the real world it does, what I'm tired of people thinking there's more to it than there is and criticising it on that basis. 'Oh it's not real karate/MT/TKD' etc etc ad nauseum.
Why do people keep bringing up the old 'it won't work in real life rubbish' see it for what it is.... a sport.
Those of us who train, coach, fight and ref MMA know it for what it is so I guess it doesn't really matter how much people look down their noses at us!

Tez, I think what you're saying, and I agree completely, is that MMA is a sport and is trained as such. Most everyone knows what it is and isn't. This doesn't mean it is worthless in a self defence situation. Just that MMA as it exists today isn't typically trained FOR self defence... any more than boxing or wrestling are trained for self defence. It is typically trained for sport and competition and the training methods are proven and reliable. Machida's karate works in competition because of how he's trained. The timing that has been mentioned several times is there because of how he trains. The synthesis of his karate, his ground work, his take down defense and all of the other non-karate aspects of his game are sound because of how he trains... for sport.

He may also train for self defence... I have no idea. But it's clear that, whatever else he may do, he trains specifically for MMA competition.

The first thought that pops into my mind when someone brings up the, 'but it's just a sport' spiel is that my experience with self defence training has been anything but. I know that quality self defence training exists, but the idea that the lion's share of karate/tkd or whatever schools are going to better prepare you for self defence that MMA training is laughable. Some do. Many don't. I walk by the local branch of this place pretty often. They have a school in Kent Station, where I often take the family to eat dinner. It's ironic that "self defense" is in the name.

 

[FearlessFreep]

There are variations on a phrase I use

"With all things equal, strength wins
With all things equal, size wins
With all things equal, speed wins
With all things equal, technique wins
With all things equal, training wins
With all things equal, endurance wins
With all things equal, determination wins

Things are never equal"

What that means to me is that the continuum from "survive" to "not survive" is multi-dimensional and for any given encounter, whether in the ring, the cage, the mat, the street, the outcome is going to be determined by a lot of factors.


Football players are strong, fast, high endurance, resistance to pain. Football is a competition that has nothing to do with self-defense, but someone who trains for football is still going to be a formidable opponent on the street for those reasons. Same with MMA, Tae Kwon Do, point sparring, etc.., etc... even if you do train for the competition, the skills and characteristics garnered in that training will serve you in good stead.

So that argument that "it does/doesn't work in the cage/ring/mat so that means it would/wouldn't work on the street" is kinda meaningless. And this gets back to my original point. The cage is a highly artificial environment, the competition within it is highly contrived by the nature of the sport. I think it's interesting what happens to people as they get more and more focused on the elite level of that environment: Rashad trained *only* for Lyoto. Lyoto trained *only* for Rashad. And within the context of that focus, Rashad could not meet an elite fighter because he could not prepare as well for Lyoto as Lyoto could for Rashad so it says something to me about elite levels of competition and training, but because of the contrivedness of that environment, I don't think you can extrapolate from their anything meaningful about the relative arts, etc...

 

[shihansmurf]

Machida's karate approach is by no means unique among MMAers, it may just be new to people watching the UFC.

Exactly.

Karate, like all other martial arts, is simply a teaching model who's purpose is to ingrain fighting skills in the individual martial artist. Nothing more. Taking shotokan, wado ryu, goju ryu, or shorin ryu and training with heavy to full contact sparring, serious conditioning, and adapting the skill set to the individual through trial and error againts resisting opponents will produce an effective fighter that tends to look and move a lot differently than another fighter who went through through the same process due to the inate differences in the individual martial artists. In fact, I would venture to say that the end result would tend to produce a lot of fighters that move and perform quite a bit like kyokushinkai artists, but that is just a bit of supposition on my part. A large portion of how Machida fights is, of course, shotokan strategy of off-line stepping, evasion, and counter striking(even if it doesn't look picture perfect, the underlying concept and strategy is there in the way he moves) but that strategy has been filtered through the individual performing the skills. In this case, Machida's athleticism and talent gives him a great platform to execute those skills.

Point is, training any martial art in an alive manner will yeild good results. Now, a good martial artist will recognise that their base art has hole ans will cross train as needed to fill gaps in their base of knowledge, but I disagree with the notion the Machida's karate isn't what has gotten him to the point that it has. His ground game is a secondary aspect to his fighting strategy. I think it is disengenuous to assume that as art that he has cross-trained in has been more beneficial, or had a greater impact on the development of his skills than the art he has been primarily studying for the majority of his life. Given that Lyoto Machida himself credits his families' ryu of shotokan with his ability, I think that dispels any counter argument to the contrary.

Tez is absolutely right, though. Machida's approach to karate isn't unique in the MMA world. As cool as I find it to have a fellow shotokan practitioner at the top of the light heavyweight division, I notice that Geroges St.Pierre, who happens to be a kyokushin black belt, didn't spark this same furor over the effectiveness of karate. As others have pointed out, there are other karate devotees in the mma world, so is it just because Machida performs the skills in a way that actually looks like a shotokan fighter that all at once we're getting the chorus of "Wow, that karate stuff works, if trainied properly?", offset of course by the "Well, he may claim karate as his primary style, but really he can only fight because he did BJJ, and apparently trainied MT in Thailand, and he once attended a two hour camp on greco," crowd?

MMA is a great sport and the athletes that excell in it are some of the absolute best martial artists in the world. I am always amazed when I hears the criticisms of MMA not being good for self-defense. It sort of like complaining that a corvette isn't the best car in the world to take to the grocery store. Maybe not, but I bet I could still pick up a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk in a vette. The skills that allow an athlete to be successfull in the ring translate pretty darn well to a real altercation, not to mention that those skills will be being performed by a well conditioned athlete.I'd take my chances any day against a highly skilld but out of shape fighter, before a moderatly skilled but well conditioned martial artist.

So many of the fans of the UFC honestly know so little about the martial arts, that its frusterating in the extreme to listen to the "Karate Sux!!!" crowd for years and now I'm hearing "Well, a karate expert may be the champ but Karate still sux, it must be anything else having to do with that fighter that earned him that title." On the other hand I find all the band wagon jumping intersting as well. People that have been vilifying karate for years, suddenly are singing its praises. Its interseting.

Mark

 

[Omar B]

You know machida did actually train Muay thai in thailand though right??

I know, but it anyone who's done karate knows that knees are not the sole domain of Thai Boxing. Heck, first time I saw MT I thought they were using our knee techniques.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I know, but it anyone who's done karate knows that knees are not the sole domain of Thai Boxing. Heck, first time I saw MT I thought they were using our knee techniques.

This is one of my irritations with Tae Kwon Do. TKD has both knees and elbows in it's poomse but you almost never see them trained as strikes for their own sake

 

[K831]

It was a great fight, Machida looked great. One constant in his matches is that the crowd starts booing because he doesn't just wade in and start swinging. He's very patient. I took a friend to see the fight who is new to the sport and he kept saying, "Come on! This is boring!" I said, "No, just wait." Sure enough, Machida waited for the right moment and took Evans out. I enjoy his fights, but he can be frustrating for those who are looking for a brawl.

I get frustrated when I hear the boo's, especially 60 seconds into the first round. Some fighters spend the entire fight running and I understand why they aren't fan favorites. Machida brings the fight to others, just on his time frame. He simply controls the pace and the distance.

 

[CoryKS]

I get frustrated when I hear the boo's, especially 60 seconds into the first round. Some fighters spend the entire fight running and I understand why they aren't fan favorites. Machida brings the fight to others, just on his time frame. He simply controls the pace and the distance.

It frustrates me, too. I'd hate to see a fighter start playing another fighter's game to appease the fans. You do see in some bouts that the fighters step up the aggression when the fans get too noisy, but I think in Machida's case the delay is integral to his strategy.

On a somewhat related note, did it seem like the refs were really quick to stand the grapplers back up during the other fights?