Looking for written sources on TKD

[miguksaram]

I am not sure any of them had the travel schedule that Gen Choi did, especially Prof Kano as he lived pre-airplanes.
You give some good examples for each in each category, but I am not sure that they can match or beat him on all 5. But I am willing to be corrected.

Again, as I said before, the examples that I gave you could match an beat him in all with the possibility of World games simply because not all martial arts have or had a sport aspect to them. So to say he was the unmatched simply because he resieded of more sport activities is a stretch. When there are other martial artists both Korean and Non-Korean who have matched and beaten him in 4 other catagories.

 

[miguksaram]

Exactly! It really gets to the point of how standard he made his martial art. Which by the way is what the KKW & WTF are now trying to do with their Poomsae world championship. Gen Choi accomplished this decades ago, almost single handedly. That really is a big deal. He standardized his martial art & made his unique movements the same around the world, where the gold medal went to the one who performed the closest to the standard he set & taught.
Now I only used the term arbitrary because I arbitrarily picked these 5 criteria. As stated I did so as I do not know of anyone that surpassed all 5 of these categories.

I could grant you that ITF competition poomsae may have standardized before KKW, but KKW standardized their martial art from the beginning that was what the unification process was all about. In the last few years they have been tightening the screws for competition poomsae because their focus was on sparring, but overall the standard has been there. Now individual KKW schools have done their own interpretation of poomsae just like ITF schools have done. I'm sure both systems have been doing their best to rope those people in and teach them correctly.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

of course & Sir there is no doubt about that. Gen Choi can not compare to GM Norris, but he did promote him to 8th Dan black belt. I did make up or compile this specific set of criteria as I do not know anyone that can compare to those 5 accomplishments of Gen Choi. So far no one has given me a name of someone who did all 5 & did them to a greater extent than Gen Choi. It was done on purpose to highlight his contributions. It is a given that Gen Choi can not & does not match the accomplishments of Seagal or GM Norris.

Just to clarify, in no way am I implying that any one that I named has greater accomplishments than the General. Simply accomplishments in different areas. Steven Seagal accomplished more as a martial arts movie maker than General Choi did because he was a martial arts movie maker. He teaches and is recognized as being highly skilled, but he was not involved in the formation of a martial art the way that the General was.

Chuck Norris' accomplishments are, likewise, different from those of the General based on the fact that he had different goals.

I guess it depends on your definition of an icon. If you mean that GMs Rhee & Norris were Icons because they made movies or a lot of money, then of course Gen Choi doesn't measure up as he did not make movies, but he did oversee the production of several training films that helped spread the standard that he set & taught world-wide.
I do think that as a martial art leader, pioneer, founder etc, Gen Choi was held in an iconic stature by countless students in over 100 countries around the world.

General Choi is an icon within Taekwondo and to a lesser extent, in the martial arts world. Jhoon Rhee is an icon both inside and outside of the martial arts. Jhoon Rhee, at one point, was a household name in certain parts of the country and did a great deal to bring people with no martial arts background into taekwondo.

Norris, Seagal, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, and the fictional 'Mister Miyagi' are also icons in that sense. They are known outside of martial arts circles. Choi and the pioneers, in my opinion, worked from the inside out; the worked to establish and to spread their art globally. When Pat Morita portrayed Mister Miyagi, people from outside of the martial arts suddenly wanted to get inside.

Without those who established the art, there would be no art for those outside to want to get into. Certainly, taekwondo spread without the help of flashy film stars. But the flashy martial arts film stars are iconic in a way that founders and pioneers are not, mainly by virtue of being flashy film stars. Jhoon Rhee is a different case; he trained a lot of politicians and prominent people and advertised on television, quite extensively in my area. If I say Jhoon Rhee to someone and they aren't sure, all I have to do is say, 'nobody bothers me' and they instantly know who he is.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Again, as I said before, the examples that I gave you could match an beat him in all with the possibility of World games simply because not all martial arts have or had a sport aspect to them. So to say he was the unmatched simply because he resieded of more sport activities is a stretch. When there are other martial artists both Korean and Non-Korean who have matched and beaten him in 4 other catagories.

Sorry but I am pretty sure that few racked up the frequent flier miles that Gen Choi did. He traveled abroad from 1959 to 2002 for TKD. He took his martial art to countries that were not open to many outsiders. Give me one example of someone who came close to his travels. Now I may not know of someone, but you must understand that Gen Choi crossed the world several times a year for his TKD. I really am not sure that anyone else did this, but am not as informed with other martial arts. So please give those names. Then you have to go down the list & see how that person compares in the other categories.
Please keep in mind that it was also his direct teaching, with him on the floor instructing AND then combining that with the fact that he not only presided over world championships, but those games took place on a regular basis from 1974 till 2001, in many different countries & regions of the world AND in those many championships some 60 nations would show up & competitors would compete in 5 categories under parameters he set AND the patterns were of his design AND the winners were those who came close to the world wide standard he set!
Then of course throw in the other criteria I listed & see how they compare.

Maybe the best way to do it is to provide a name, 1 name at time & then list how they match up in each category.

I restate the criteria:
So to restate the criteria that I am asking people to weigh in on specifically is:
1) Wrote the amount of books that Gen Choi did, along with in-depth
or comprehensive nature of some, ie 15 volume set of Encyclopedias, the 1st ever books on TKD
2) Taught all around the world directly to students
3) A travel schedule that had him cross the world several times a year
4) Presiding over world championships for 28 years
5) Having an exact technical standard that he personally set & taught, so that when a world championship was held some 60 nations would show up & the pattern competition was judged by who came closest to the exact standard he set

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I could grant you that ITF competition poomsae may have standardized before KKW, but KKW standardized their martial art from the beginning that was what the unification process was all about. In the last few years they have been tightening the screws for competition poomsae because their focus was on sparring, but overall the standard has been there. Now individual KKW schools have done their own interpretation of poomsae just like ITF schools have done. I'm sure both systems have been doing their best to rope those people in and teach them correctly.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment & here is why: Kukki TKD unified around new sports rules that they created. They also granted certification without a set standard, including their form set. There were many who did & stil;, do the Palgwes & obtained KKW certs, as those who did the karate katas, Gen Choi's Chon Ji form set & the Taegueks to their own individual or school standard. They also eventually adopted a new dobok to get away from the karate gi. Now while the KKW may have set a standard, it was never enforced from a world wide standardization standpoint, if that makes sense.
Today, with the recent addition of the WTF world poomsae championships, this is now being emphasized from a sports competition standpoint. I am not sure how it impacts or if it does from a certification standpoint.
The ITF has for the longest time, had both the sports element & certification process to force compliance around the world. They also had the benefit of having a sole voice decide the standard, as Gen Choi was the principle founder of his original TKD. Of course there was always exceptions to some people getting certs without being up to snuff or not following through on their pledge to conform etc. But even our local championships reinforced the exact world-wide standard & the official ITF instructors courses were held all around the world, not just at their headquarters in Vienna Austria, picked by the way for its neutral political posture which allowed access to the various member NGBs from around the world, who all adopted various political govt models for their respective nations.

 

[puunui]

Any other recommended readings that are more authoritative than speculative?

There are other books on Taekwondo history out there, but the best ones all seem to be written in the Korean language. For example, a couple of years after the Modern History book was published, the same authors wrote a different book called "The History of Our Taekwondo". There is some overlap, but the books are different. There are other authors out there who have written history books on Taekwondo. They sit on a shelf in my Korean Martial Arts book room, untranslated, like unmined gold. The books have all kinds of different topics, different kwans like the Kuk Mu Kwan, Chung Yong Kwan, etc., even discussion on Soo Bak, Taekyon, Hwa Rang. It looks stuff I already know, but it is good to hear it from a different perspective. I should take the time to translate it.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

There are other books on Taekwondo history out there, but the best ones all seem to be written in the Korean language. For example, a couple of years after the Modern History book was published, the same authors wrote a different book called "The History of Our Taekwondo". There is some overlap, but the books are different. There are other authors out there who have written history books on Taekwondo. They sit on a shelf in my Korean Martial Arts book room, untranslated, like unmined gold. The books have all kinds of different topics, different kwans like the Kuk Mu Kwan, Chung Yong Kwan, etc., even discussion on Soo Bak, Taekyon, Hwa Rang. It looks stuff I already know, but it is good to hear it from a different perspective. I should take the time to translate it.

Sir did you ever take the time to translate or get a translation of Gen Choi's 1959 book?
If so, what did it say?
Was it the same stuff?

 

[puunui]

Sir did you ever take the time to translate or get a translation of Gen Choi's 1959 book? If so, what did it say? Was it the same stuff?

Frankly, I'm not interested in what General Choi has to say, in english or korean.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Frankly, I'm not interested in what General Choi has to say, in english or korean.

Sorry you feel like that. I think that it may provide some insight to see what he wrote 6 years before what he wrote in 1965.
Don't you?

 

[puunui]

Sorry you feel like that. I think that it may provide some insight to see what he wrote 6 years before what he wrote in 1965. Don't you?

No I don't.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Sorry you feel like that. I think that it may provide some insight to see what he wrote 6 years before what he wrote in 1965. Don't you?

No I don't.

Too bad for us

 

[puunui]

Too bad for us

You can always translate it yourself. You want to be a historian, then you might have to roll up your sleeves and get in there yourself. To me, reading General Choi's autobiography and Killing Art makes you a reader, not a historian. Go do some original work. Seek out some pioneers and then put out information that is not already out there. Obtain documents or photos that are not already on the internet. In other words, don't just stand there, do something, anything, on your own initiative, instead of relying on others give you a fish everyday.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

You can always translate it yourself. You want to be a historian, then you might have to roll up your sleeves and get in there yourself. To me, reading General Choi's autobiography and Killing Art makes you a reader, not a historian. Go do some original work. Seek out some pioneers and then put out information that is not already out there. Obtain documents or photos that are not already on the internet. In other words, don't just stand there, do something, anything, on your own initiative, instead of relying on others give you a fish everyday.

Gee I am somewhat saddened by what seems to be such a harsh response. I apologize in advance if I am mis-interpreting it. I do not think I have ever written anything like this about you. I find it to be somewhat unbecoming of a martial artist. I admire & have been made better by it & I thank you again for what you have shared.

 

[puunui]

Gee I am somewhat saddened by what seems to be such a harsh response. I apologize in advance if I am mis-interpreting it. I do not think I have ever written anything like this about you. I find it to be somewhat unbecoming of a martial artist. I admire & have been made better by it & I thank you again for what you have shared.

So you are offended because I encourage you to do your own work and investigation?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Gee I am somewhat saddened by what seems to be such a harsh response. I apologize in advance if I am mis-interpreting it. I do not think I have ever written anything like this about you. I find it to be somewhat unbecoming of a martial artist. I admire & have been made better by it & I thank you again for what you have shared.

So you are offended because I encourage you to do your own work and investigation?

No sir, not offended at all. In fact that was not what I said. I simply said that I was "somewhat saddened" as it didn't fell like something that a martial artist would portray.
(I have noticed how some correct mistakes people make by what was actually written, so I thought I would set the record straight)

 

[puunui]

No sir, not offended at all. In fact that was not what I said. I simply said that I was "somewhat saddened" as it didn't fell like something that a martial artist would portray.

Actually it's exactly what a martial artist should portray, which is to encourage others to put in the time themselves. Sitting there watching others training doesn't mean you are training too. If that were true, then every parent would be the same rank as their kids.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Actually it's exactly what a martial artist should portray, which is to encourage others to put in the time themselves. Sitting there watching others training doesn't mean you are training too. If that were true, then every parent would be the same rank as their kids.

Sorry sir I think that is a poor analogy. Training is something that one must do to benefit. Researching history is done on many levels & has many facets to it. Among them is the all important "literature review", which is fairly common in most scholarly works that are peer reviewed. In fact, it often 1 of the first parts of a research paper.
While there are many other steps that all have to be done, many of them requiring field or "leg work", some things unfortunately can not be gained in the field as many important people have passed on.
Now sadly this is the case in some instances, but you, whose work I highly admire & have a deep respect for, have had the great fortune to have interacted with many vitally important & influential people. That info is so very important & may contain many pieces of this confusing puzzle. Since oral testimony is of a nature that can benefit from cross referencing, having knowledge of what people have said is essential in order to insure research is as through as possible.
Interviews are made more effective by having a better base of knowledge. Even a polygraph examiner can only hope to be effective if she has a solid base to start from.
I am sure that you understand this, as I am sure that you are correct that training in TKD can only be done on the floor & not by sitting on the parent's chair, though even a parent may see or hear something that will be helpful & add to their knowledge just by observing. I often encourage students to come to class, even if injured, as they can still learn, regardless of setting. In any event I repeat that I have learned from you via this forum & I am thankful for that.

 

[puunui]

Sorry sir I think that is a poor analogy. Training is something that one must do to benefit. Researching history is done on many levels & has many facets to it. Among them is the all important "literature review", which is fairly common in most scholarly works that are peer reviewed. In fact, it often 1 of the first parts of a research paper.

How would you know if it was a poor analogy, given the fact that you have not done the work? You haven't even done the "literature review", given the fact that you are asking me for a translation of General Choi's 1959 book, instead of doing it yourself and sharing it on here.

While there are many other steps that all have to be done, many of them requiring field or "leg work", some things unfortunately can not be gained in the field as many important people have passed on.

Frankly, that is your problem, not mine. And there are plenty of pioneers who are still alive.

Now sadly this is the case in some instances, but you, whose work I highly admire & have a deep respect for, have had the great fortune to have interacted with many vitally important & influential people. That info is so very important & may contain many pieces of this confusing puzzle. Since oral testimony is of a nature that can benefit from cross referencing, having knowledge of what people have said is essential in order to insure research is as through as possible.

I have cross referenced the testimony. They all say the same thing, that General Choi was a liar.

Interviews are made more effective by having a better base of knowledge.

Yes, I believe one of the reasons why so many of the pioneers open up to me is because I understand Korean culture and approach them respectfully and in the proper fashion, I pronounce names correctly, and we can have a positive discussion because they don't have to explain the background to get to the meat of it. People who are witnesses to some of the discussions I have had are shocked to hear who much info can come out from a two or three minute exchange in passing.

I am sure that you understand this, as I am sure that you are correct that training in TKD can only be done on the floor & not by sitting on the parent's chair, though even a parent may see or hear something that will be helpful & add to their knowledge just by observing. I often encourage students to come to class, even if injured, as they can still learn, regardless of setting. In any event I repeat that I have learned from you via this forum & I am thankful for that.

Yes, I do understand this, that of course everyone can learn by watching (including parents) but if you want to really understand, then you need to go out there and do your own research. Can you see the difference between reading someone else's work and making comments about it, and doing your own work and adding that to the discussion?

But frankly, the fact that you feel you can ask me questions but not answer when I ask you the same questions tells me all that I need to know about you.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Frankly, that is your problem, not mine. And there are plenty of pioneers who are still alive.

Yes there are many pioneers alive & on both sides of the aisle. But should we only listen to 1 side?

cross referenced the testimony. They all say the same thing, that General Choi was a liar.

Lets see what he lied about:
His training in Japan, whether or not he taught there, the length or time of his training, that he was not a martial artist, that he was junior, that his teaching in the ROK Army in the 1940s does not equate to the opening of the 5 original kwans.

Now what does any of this have to do with what he was able to accomplish with the ITF, especially when he left Korea & was eventually forced to be a 1 man team, often doing a 1 man show. We also should consider he did all this minus govt support that south Korea was giving the KTA, KKW & WTF, plus they had a concerted effort to dismantle his, what they called a private organization. Not too bad for a private organization, run by an ego driven autocratic dictator, don't you think?

None of the negative things that people said or say about him, or write on a forum, can possible take away from his many accomplishments & what he contributed for so many around the world.

 

[puunui]

Now what does any of this have to do with what he was able to accomplish with the ITF, especially when he left Korea & was eventually forced to be a 1 man team, often doing a 1 man show. We also should consider he did all this minus govt support that south Korea was giving the KTA, KKW & WTF, plus they had a concerted effort to dismantle his, what they called a private organization. Not too bad for a private organization, run by an ego driven autocratic dictator, don't you think? None of the negative things that people said or say about him, or write on a forum, can possible take away from his many accomplishments & what he contributed for so many around the world.

What he accomplished was to create a wedge between his followers and the rest of Taekwondo. Imagine if there had not been a General Choi. Unification would have occurred much sooner and many of the conflicts that we see today wouldn't exist.