TKD history, founding and its teaching

[Galen]

I have been doing massive amounts of reading on the history, founding, philosophy, etc. of TKD. I even have the 15 vol. encyclopedia written by Gen. Choi. (note: This book should not be the be all and end all of TKD knowledge.) This might be a rather broad set of questions, but they all pertain to the teaching of TKD.

Firstly, there is a lot of myth/legend taken as fact when discussing the founding of things such as the Hwa Rang Do and origins of TKD, and while General Choi wrote a lot of these into his encyclopedia, doesn't make them accurate.

I see a lot of schools teaching TKD without questioning what they are actually teaching. I was curious to know what you all think about your education and whether you feel it's right to teach students unverified facts(myths) as truth? It seems that it's taught "just because", and not many instructors truly do any research.

I am not here to insult or put down anyone teaching this knowledge. When I was at my old school, it was taught to me and I never thought to question it until I began wanting to teach my own students. This raises issues, as forgoing the teaching of 'core' histories/philosophies means that one would no longer be teaching 'traditional' TKD.

I'm not a huge fan of federations/associations, as I feel they are mostly focused on money and politics than accuracy and truth. I understand that I am free to teach anything I'd like and not be under pressure from said fed/assocs, though as a person that strives for truth, I am interested in what others have been taught and their ideas of what should be taught, especially when you know it to be less than clear-cut.

It is my wish to remove as much of the politics from my teaching as possible. What do you (other instructors) teach and why? Do you feel obligated to teach what you were taught? Would you or have you changed your curriculum when you have found errors or just keep steady so as not to cause problems?

 

[ATC]

I have been doing massive amounts of reading on the history, founding, philosophy, etc. of TKD. I even have the 15 vol. encyclopedia written by Gen. Choi. (note: This book should not be the be all and end all of TKD knowledge.) This might be a rather broad set of questions, but they all pertain to the teaching of TKD.

Firstly, there is a lot of myth/legend taken as fact when discussing the founding of things such as the Hwa Rang Do and origins of TKD, and while General Choi wrote a lot of these into his encyclopedia, doesn't make them accurate.

I see a lot of schools teaching TKD without questioning what they are actually teaching. I was curious to know what you all think about your education and whether you feel it's right to teach students unverified facts(myths) as truth? It seems that it's taught "just because", and not many instructors truly do any research.

I am not here to insult or put down anyone teaching this knowledge. When I was at my old school, it was taught to me and I never thought to question it until I began wanting to teach my own students. This raises issues, as forgoing the teaching of 'core' histories/philosophies means that one would no longer be teaching 'traditional' TKD.

I'm not a huge fan of federations/associations, as I feel they are mostly focused on money and politics than accuracy and truth. I understand that I am free to teach anything I'd like and not be under pressure from said fed/assocs, though as a person that strives for truth, I am interested in what others have been taught and their ideas of what should be taught, especially when you know it to be less than clear-cut.

It is my wish to remove as much of the politics from my teaching as possible. What do you (other instructors) teach and why? Do you feel obligated to teach what you were taught? Would you or have you changed your curriculum when you have found errors or just keep steady so as not to cause problems?

You have not given any specifics. Please elaborate on the facts vs. the myths.

Thank you.

 

[terryl965]

Please break down the myth to facts for us.

 

[Kacey]

It is my wish to remove as much of the politics from my teaching as possible. What do you (other instructors) teach and why? Do you feel obligated to teach what you were taught? Would you or have you changed your curriculum when you have found errors or just keep steady so as not to cause problems?

I use the information in the Encyclopedia as a base and as a touchstone - but despite the quantity of information in the 15 volume set, there are things missing, and there are things that changed from edition to edition, and some of the changes don't make sense. There are inconsistencies within the information presented in those volumes. That said, however, it is possible to look at questions from this perspective:

- what is the question?
- what information is available to answer the question
- is the available information consistent?
- what form do the inconsistencies take (if there are any)?
- is the information in the Encyclopedia in line with theory?
- if so - great!
- if not - in what way does it not match theory? Is it likely to be a translation error (lots of those)? Is it likely to be a printing error (lots of those too)? Do various editions agree or disagree on the issue? If not - how are they different? Which difference matches theory? If they do match - apply the theory and see where it takes you.

Now, this is not my system - this is a system I was recently taught by Grand Master Walter Lang, our senior Master Instructor (he's a IX Dan) to explain how he researches questions that arise in the course of his own continued search for knowledge and inconsistencies, which is going some, considering he started TKD in 1965. He is the first to admit that sometimes the correct answer is "book wrong" - and he uses the above method (with changes as needed) to determine how the book is wrong, and how to explain it to the rest of us.

On the one hand, I understand what you're saying about politics - on the other hand, even more inconsistencies are likely to creep in if you are completely alone and have no one to refer to when the above process falls down (and it does).

Do I teach what I was taught? Certainly! And one of the first things I was taught was that seniors make mistakes, and seniors worth learning from admit their mistakes rather than giving a knee-jerk answer that may or may not be correct. One of the next things I was taught was to question anything I don't understand. I know that lots of people aren't taught that way - I ran into a TKD student while walking our respective dogs in the park who told me he quit the class he was in when the instructor started contradicting himself, and, when asked, said "Because I say so - agree or get the hell out!" - so he left. So yes - as my understanding improves, I change what/how I teach - that's the way I was taught.

 

[Galen]

Must have gotten lost in my head as I was writing.

I'm talking about things such as:

The Hwa Rang Do wasn't exactly an elite military group. They were boys taken from high ranking society and taught matters of state and politics, archery, horsemanship, fighting skills, etc. As for their code of ethics, it would appear that years after their creation, a member acquired the code from another group of people and assimilated them.

There is also the assumption that Taek Kyon was martial art practiced in ancient Korea. Though, it was more a game of balance whereby people would try to knock each other off balance with their feet. Thus, Tae Kwon has special meaning because it's based on Korea's ancient MA.

Also, when addressing the reason for jumping and high kicking, many offer the reason that it's to kick people off horses. This theory doesn't hold much water, but it's offered as historical.

It also seems as though Gen. Choi receives all the credit for creating TKD. At least, from what I have read online. Though, in his encyclopedia, he doesn't exactly claim that.

There is also the issue of renaming Juche to KoDang or Chang Hon, which is rather political in nature, and has been discussed at length on the forums here. I'm more interested in historical inaccuracies and myths/legends being treated as reality. I'm probably missing something, but this is the major stuff.

Mind you, I'm not saying this is always the case at every school. I'm just trying to cover all bases.

 

[Galen]

Now, this is not my system - this is a system I was recently taught by Grand Master Walter Lang, our senior Master Instructor (he's a IX Dan) to explain how he researches questions that arise in the course of his own continued search for knowledge and inconsistencies, which is going some, considering he started TKD in 1965. He is the first to admit that sometimes the correct answer is "book wrong" - and he uses the above method (with changes as needed) to determine how the book is wrong, and how to explain it to the rest of us.

On the one hand, I understand what you're saying about politics - on the other hand, even more inconsistencies are likely to creep in if you are completely alone and have no one to refer to when the above process falls down (and it does).

Do I teach what I was taught? Certainly! And one of the first things I was taught was that seniors make mistakes, and seniors worth learning from admit their mistakes rather than giving a knee-jerk answer that may or may not be correct. One of the next things I was taught was to question anything I don't understand. I know that lots of people aren't taught that way - I ran into a TKD student while walking our respective dogs in the park who told me he quit the class he was in when the instructor started contradicting himself, and, when asked, said "Because I say so - agree or get the hell out!" - so he left. So yes - as my understanding improves, I change what/how I teach - that's the way I was taught.

This seems in line with how I feel teaching should be done, and I completely agree that any instructor worth his salt isn't going to militantly expect you to agree with them; right or wrong.

As for the politics, it's hard to avoid, being that this is a social activity. My argument is more that it's sad that the TKD federations and associations have to be run like oil tankers, that is: slow moving and near impossible to course correct.

 

[ATC]

The things you mentioned are similar in all history. Take the US for example. I could list many things that we are taught that simply are exaggeration or conjecture but won't for that will really take this topic off course.

Also translation from Korean to English does not always equate in meaning or intent. I am sure that there is much lost in translation and just as much is exaggeration.

With that we can only surmise or assume many points based on logic and inference.

No history is factual or actual. Unless you were there it is all from someone else’s perspective and then passed and re-perspectives and so on and so on.

The arguments for or against are moot.

 

[Galen]

The things you mentioned are similar in all history. Take the US for example. I could list many things that we are taught that simply are exaggeration or conjecture but won't for that will really take this topic off course.

Also translation from Korean to English does not always equate in meaning or intent. I am sure that there is much lost in translation and just as much is exaggeration.

With that we can only surmise or assume many points based on logic and inference.

No history is factual or actual. Unless you were there it is all from someone else’s perspective and then passed and re-perspectives and so on and so on.

The arguments for or against are moot.

I completely understand that history is mostly interpretation(by the victor), but what I'm asking is that if we know it to be a gray area, then why have so many been taught it as thought it were true? Especially, without the preface that it might be incorrect?

And, I agree with you point that it's the same with all history. Though, my history teacher always made it a point to share different ideologies and purposely went against the curriculum and had us read from books that were less than politically correct or generally disagreed with assumed thought. I feel this same sentiment is missing from martial arts training, in general.

I speak, in general, because I know there are schools probably doing exactly what I mentioned. I was merely curious how others dealt with such topics.

 

[ATC]

I completely understand that history is mostly interpretation(by the victor), but what I'm asking is that if we know it to be a gray area, then why have so many been taught it as thought it were true? Especially, without the preface that it might be incorrect?

And, I agree with you point that it's the same with all history. Though, my history teacher always made it a point to share different ideologies and purposely went against the curriculum and had us read from books that were less than politically correct or generally disagreed with assumed thought. I feel this same sentiment is missing from martial arts training, in general.

I speak, in general, because I know there are schools probably doing exactly what I mentioned. I was merely curious how others dealt with such topics.

I understand your interest. I can only tell you that our GM only once brought out one GM Choi's books and did not use it for any history lesson. He just told us that history was in there and that we as Black Belts were welcome to his library if wanted.

I have read some as it was required as a part of my testing to write on the history of TKD (as many of you may have had to do also). I took from it what I could and left many other parts. Most of the stuff I took I hoped were facts and for the most part are documented in others history as well so I feel confident that they were, thinks like dates of a period and names of the kingdoms. The occupation of Korea by Japan, the Japanese influence on the art. GM Choi's honorary black belt and things like that.

Again I do not know what’s truth and what’s myth but there are some facts there as well, but again most facts aren’t fun.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Kacey, whe you next see GM Lang, say hello for me.

With regard to history and inaccuracies, I recently found something in a book called "Secrets of Shotokan" or perhaps it was "Shotokan Secrets" . Anyway the author stated that in Japan, often the point of the story is more important than the accuracy of the story. I think this needs to be kept in mind when reviewing certain TKD History.

If you want a more in depth analysis of TKD formative years I suggest you read "TKD, a killing Art" by Alex Gillis.

Gneral Choi never claimed to create techniques of TKD from whole cloth. To the contrary he stated that having one person or country claim to invent Martial Art techniques was like one person or country claiming to have discovered fire or invented the wheel.

When it comes to older Korean history much was lost due to various invasions and occupiers who like many of that day sought to eradicate the native history and culture and replace it with there own.

Fortuneately there are still some surviving who lived thru the formative years of TKD. If you are lucky you may still be able to get some firsthand info, albeit colored by their perspectives.

 

[Dave Leverich]

I'd start with Funakoshi and look from there. Look at the founding of the Kwans, who/what etc. We can make all the assumptions/guessing etc we want about older martial arts, but those we can actually trace are quite another thing.

Try this read:
http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html

 

[msmitht]

Of course we all teach what we were taught. I don't really understand what questions you want us to answer...I can tell you what I have learned in 30 years of training.
1. Gen Choi did not create TKD. He was the man who gave the name (1955) and had the techniques formalized (Hyungs) and put them into the daily routines of the South Korean Military. That is why he is called the founder of TKD.
2. He, along with many other "Founders" of Korean Martal Arts, trained in Shotokan Karate while attending college in Japan (Japan occupied Korea before the Korean war and many went there for higher education).
3. Hwa Rang Do was created by Jo Bang Lee and brought here in the 1970's. He combined Tang Soo Do, Kung Foo and Hap Ki Do (which came from Ju Jitsu) to create his art ( I used to be friends with one of his sons and had many enlightening conversations with him). The Hwa Rang studied much like the european Knights. They practiced archery and swordplay but were aristocrats and stayed in the rear with the gear while the real troops fought and died..
4. The TKD that was brought here in the 50's, 60's and early 70's is no longer practiced in South Korea. It has become a sport and is treated as such. Most Korean's can get their poom/Dan in 2 years or less( fr only 35 dollars). I heard from one of my close friends that his son got it in 18 months at a very reputable school in South Korea. The kid is awesome too. He does not know any weapons forms and can not do any gymnastic's but he can throw very hard, fast and accurate kicks.
5. Most Old school GM's were considered 'Gangsters" in Korea.
6. There is no such thing as Su Back Do (or however they spell it). There were very old documents (more than 500 years old) that showed one man kicking another and it was labeled "Suback". in the 80's many Tang Soo Do schools started changing their names to Soo Back Do. I guess they wanted to look original. They still practice, to this day, Tang Soo Do techniques that originated in Japan (Shotokan).
I know that people will argue about what I have written. After all, their grandmaster has to be right. Right?
My sources were 3 very drunk GM's who were at a funeral (one was Moo Do Kwan 8th, one was Chung Do Kwan 9th and the other was a KKW 9th).
It was a very revealing conversation and most of it had to be translated by my Korean friends, but it was the truth as they knew it to be.
I looked in many books and only a handful hinted at the truth.
I hope that this helps.

 

[miguksaram]

Must have gotten lost in my head as I was writing.

I'm talking about things such as:

The Hwa Rang Do wasn't exactly an elite military group. They were boys taken from high ranking society and taught matters of state and politics, archery, horsemanship, fighting skills, etc. As for their code of ethics, it would appear that years after their creation, a member acquired the code from another group of people and assimilated them.

Actually they were a military group. If you were chosen to go into Hwarang you were going into the military as a leader. Sort of like being put into Westpoint. They were schooled in the areas that you spoke of. Though you are right they were not an elite group like say Delta Force, or Navy SEALS, but they did serve as military leaders.

There is also the assumption that Taek Kyon was martial art practiced in ancient Korea. Though, it was more a game of balance whereby people would try to knock each other off balance with their feet. Thus, Tae Kwon has special meaning because it's based on Korea's ancient MA.

Taekkyon was a martial art which was practiced in Korea. More and more it was used as a gambling game for the gangsters and local villages during festivals.

Also, when addressing the reason for jumping and high kicking, many offer the reason that it's to kick people off horses. This theory doesn't hold much water, but it's offered as historical.

This is true that it is a bogus theory of why the jumping high kick was developed.

 

[Galen]

Of course we all teach what we were taught. I don't really understand what questions you want us to answer...I can tell you what I have learned in 30 years of training.
1. Gen Choi did not create TKD. He was the man who gave the name (1955) and had the techniques formalized (Hyungs) and put them into the daily routines of the South Korean Military. That is why he is called the founder of TKD.
2. He, along with many other "Founders" of Korean Martal Arts, trained in Shotokan Karate while attending college in Japan (Japan occupied Korea before the Korean war and many went there for higher education).
3. Hwa Rang Do was created by Jo Bang Lee and brought here in the 1970's. He combined Tang Soo Do, Kung Foo and Hap Ki Do (which came from Ju Jitsu) to create his art ( I used to be friends with one of his sons and had many enlightening conversations with him). The Hwa Rang studied much like the european Knights. They practiced archery and swordplay but were aristocrats and stayed in the rear with the gear while the real troops fought and died..
4. The TKD that was brought here in the 50's, 60's and early 70's is no longer practiced in South Korea. It has become a sport and is treated as such. Most Korean's can get their poom/Dan in 2 years or less( fr only 35 dollars). I heard from one of my close friends that his son got it in 18 months at a very reputable school in South Korea. The kid is awesome too. He does not know any weapons forms and can not do any gymnastic's but he can throw very hard, fast and accurate kicks.
5. Most Old school GM's were considered 'Gangsters" in Korea.
6. There is no such thing as Su Back Do (or however they spell it). There were very old documents (more than 500 years old) that showed one man kicking another and it was labeled "Suback". in the 80's many Tang Soo Do schools started changing their names to Soo Back Do. I guess they wanted to look original. They still practice, to this day, Tang Soo Do techniques that originated in Japan (Shotokan).
I know that people will argue about what I have written. After all, their grandmaster has to be right. Right?
My sources were 3 very drunk GM's who were at a funeral (one was Moo Do Kwan 8th, one was Chung Do Kwan 9th and the other was a KKW 9th).
It was a very revealing conversation and most of it had to be translated by my Korean friends, but it was the truth as they knew it to be.
I looked in many books and only a handful hinted at the truth.
I hope that this helps.

Quite enlightening, Msmitht. I was interested in what other instructors taught their students. Whether or not most people 'update' their training with any new information, as one should always attempt to be as accurate as one can, in my humble opinion.

My original instructors taught out of Gen. Choi's encyclopedia only(it seemed). The more I read and discuss with people in 'the know', people such as yourself, it seems like there is more than meets the eye. It would seem that it's just easier to teach tradition, if you will, than to be honest about what a gray area it can be.

If I could, I'd like to talk with my original instructors about this and get their opinions on the matter. Maybe I'll try to re-establish contact, but I digress. Thank you for imparting your knowledge.

 

[msmitht]

Quite enlightening, Msmitht. I was interested in what other instructors taught their students. Whether or not most people 'update' their training with any new information, as one should always attempt to be as accurate as one can, in my humble opinion.

My original instructors taught out of Gen. Choi's encyclopedia only(it seemed). The more I read and discuss with people in 'the know', people such as yourself, it seems like there is more than meets the eye. It would seem that it's just easier to teach tradition, if you will, than to be honest about what a gray area it can be.

If I could, I'd like to talk with my original instructors about this and get their opinions on the matter. Maybe I'll try to re-establish contact, but I digress. Thank you for imparting your knowledge.

I have gen choi's encyclopedia set. There is a lot of nonsense when it comes to the history of tkd, as there is in a lot of books about tkd. What you need to understand is that when they put tkd together the Koreand were trying to "Re-discover themselves". They had gone from Japanese occupation to all out war with the chinese and needed to unify their people. Tkd became a way to show national pride. So the embelished/changed/made up a few things. The history of martial arts in Korea is vast (like in every countries past) but were used more like a game in times of peace (except for troublemakers). The reason there are very few historical documents is the Japanese (no offense intended to those of Japanese decent) destroyed them like any other conquering army would have done.
I was told that Tae Kyon contests were held between villages when they would come together for trade/harvest festivals. The winner got a prize like a goat/bull/etc.

 

[Spookey]

Regarding the Hwa-Rang...being that Taekwondo is not thousands of years old, there is really little relevance to teaching about them other than to mention the Oath and Tenets are roughly formatted after this code, however there are other codes which each mirror, the Tao of...(any philosopher)

General Choi notes numerous times that his position in the military greatly assisted his ability to promote Taekwondo, and he also states that the hyung a syllabus was created after years of research and consultation with hundreds of masters. The name Oh Do Kwan litterly transliterates into "Gym of Our Way" and was named such do to it being the bottle neck where all kwans passes through leaving knowledge and personal input!

Finally, to this day...the propoganda of each organization changes from year to year, however we are in a time of great technology so it is easy to research the information (or versions) of years past!

Facts

1. Taekwondo came about after World War II
2. The kwan founders and their senior ranks are the founders of TKD
3. General Choi credits the input of many

Taekwondo is a modern martial art, formatted after the traditional martial arts of the time, is a very broad based term based on its transliteration, and should be traced back to the instructor's kwan of origin.

"There are many gyms that shared information from their various systems of martial arts, and through necessity do to political turmoil during and after WWII the made a rough merger and unified under the name of Taekwondo to assist in restoring unity and national pride through out Korea. Therefore there are several different systems of Taekwondo. Our school if from a gym called Oh Do Kwan and was founded publicly in 1953 by General Choi Hong Hi we teach the Chang Hon Hyung yet respect the hyung of each kwan as unique and with just merit..."

This is a basic introcution to our schoold history, is non polotical, is non seperatist or elitist, yet is completely true in its intent!

Regards,
Spookey

 

[jim777]

Of course we all teach what we were taught. I don't really understand what questions you want us to answer...I can tell you what I have learned in 30 years of training.
1. Gen Choi did not create TKD. He was the man who gave the name (1955) and had the techniques formalized (Hyungs) and put them into the daily routines of the South Korean Military. That is why he is called the founder of TKD.
2. He, along with many other "Founders" of Korean Martal Arts, trained in Shotokan Karate while attending college in Japan (Japan occupied Korea before the Korean war and many went there for higher education).
3. Hwa Rang Do was created by Jo Bang Lee and brought here in the 1970's. He combined Tang Soo Do, Kung Foo and Hap Ki Do (which came from Ju Jitsu) to create his art ( I used to be friends with one of his sons and had many enlightening conversations with him). The Hwa Rang studied much like the european Knights. They practiced archery and swordplay but were aristocrats and stayed in the rear with the gear while the real troops fought and died..
4. The TKD that was brought here in the 50's, 60's and early 70's is no longer practiced in South Korea. It has become a sport and is treated as such. Most Korean's can get their poom/Dan in 2 years or less( fr only 35 dollars). I heard from one of my close friends that his son got it in 18 months at a very reputable school in South Korea. The kid is awesome too. He does not know any weapons forms and can not do any gymnastic's but he can throw very hard, fast and accurate kicks.
5. Most Old school GM's were considered 'Gangsters" in Korea.
6. There is no such thing as Su Back Do (or however they spell it). There were very old documents (more than 500 years old) that showed one man kicking another and it was labeled "Suback". in the 80's many Tang Soo Do schools started changing their names to Soo Back Do. I guess they wanted to look original. They still practice, to this day, Tang Soo Do techniques that originated in Japan (Shotokan).
I know that people will argue about what I have written. After all, their grandmaster has to be right. Right?
My sources were 3 very drunk GM's who were at a funeral (one was Moo Do Kwan 8th, one was Chung Do Kwan 9th and the other was a KKW 9th).
It was a very revealing conversation and most of it had to be translated by my Korean friends, but it was the truth as they knew it to be.
I looked in many books and only a handful hinted at the truth.
I hope that this helps.

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