Looking for information on the true historical reference point on beginning of Martial Art

[mukashimantis]

This sums it all up nicely. So much of history is lost. A few texts such as the Bubushi, exist. As for ancient civilizations keeping records of their arts, we would need to consult experts in ancient civ's. As Cayuga pointed out, either things were kept secret and/or the difficulty in putting techniques into words prevented them from writing.

 

[mukashimantis]

I think "Otzi", the Iceman, dated to 5,000 or so years ago. Contemporary or close to Egypt. Babylonian/Mesopatamia has similar stone reliefs and such.

 

[puunui]

This sums it all up nicely. So much of history is lost. A few texts such as the Bubushi, exist. As for ancient civilizations keeping records of their arts, we would need to consult experts in ancient civ's. As Cayuga pointed out, either things were kept secret and/or the difficulty in putting techniques into words prevented them from writing.

There are also paintings on caves, on walls of ancient buildings and other places.

 

[Blindside]

There is no such thing as the Middle East. The middle east is western Asia or part of the Asian continent. Civilization had started in Eastern Africa in Ethiopia and the Nile Valley.

How are you defining "civilization?"

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

No such thing as the Middle East?!?! Might I suggest you spend some time with an atlas, or a globe... or a newspaper?

The so called Middle East is part of Asia. The ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia, Canaan, Babylon, Persia, Akkad, Assyria were once colonies of Kemet (Egypt) or more likely part of the African continent. Greek Historian Herodotus claimed that Africans lived in Sumeria, Canaan, Babylon all the way to India. The whole term Middle East is just a sugar coated label that powerful people of today fabricated.

 

[frank raud]

The so called Middle East is part of Asia. The ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia, Canaan, Babylon, Persia, Akkad, Assyria were once colonies of Kemet (Egypt) or more likely part of the African continent. Greek Historian Herodotus claimed that Africans lived in Sumeria, Canaan, Babylon all the way to India. The whole term Middle East is just a sugar coated label that powerful people of today fabricated.

Would you care to explain who these powerful people are, who have managed to come up with this term?

 

[Chris Parker]

The so called Middle East is part of Asia. The ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia, Canaan, Babylon, Persia, Akkad, Assyria were once colonies of Kemet (Egypt) or more likely part of the African continent. Greek Historian Herodotus claimed that Africans lived in Sumeria, Canaan, Babylon all the way to India. The whole term Middle East is just a sugar coated label that powerful people of today fabricated.

Is that like saying that there is no such place as Iran, it's just sugar-coated labels applied to Persia?

Seriously, get a map.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

Would you care to explain who these powerful people are, who have managed to come up with this term?

Feel free to google search The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (I recommend everyone to read the whole document). The Protocols is a report of minutes held at secrect meetings by Zionists who are strategizing taking over the world. On Protocol 16, 17, or 18 it explains about their intenions of changing human History. If you have power to control literature, you control how people think.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Feel free to google search The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (I recommend everyone to read the whole document). The Protocols is a report of minutes held at secrect meetings by Zionists who are strategizing taking over the world. On Protocol 16, 17, or 18 it explains about their intenions of changing human History. If you have power to control literature, you control how people think.

Wow......

 

[Chris Parker]

Feel free to google search The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (I recommend everyone to read the whole document). The Protocols is a report of minutes held at secrect meetings by Zionists who are strategizing taking over the world. On Protocol 16, 17, or 18 it explains about their intenions of changing human History. If you have power to control literature, you control how people think.

And in related news, Lizard People run the world, Stephen King killed John Lennon, the Middle Ages never happened (kinda like the Middle East not being real as well, I suppose...), and, well, you read them!

http://www.oddee.com/item_92285.aspx

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/magazine/15-11/st_best

http://www.manolith.com/2010/02/18/the-15-best-conspiracy-theories-ever/

Oh, and "Jedi"? Stop smoking that.

 

[frank raud]

Feel free to google search The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (I recommend everyone to read the whole document). The Protocols is a report of minutes held at secrect meetings by Zionists who are strategizing taking over the world. On Protocol 16, 17, or 18 it explains about their intenions of changing human History. If you have power to control literature, you control how people think.

You know, when I asked who the"powerful people" were who came up with the modern concept of the Middle East, I really wasn't expecting to see this. I was under the impression that the only people who would believe this hang out on Stormfront. Apparently I was wrong.

 

[frank raud]

Feel free to google search The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (I recommend everyone to read the whole document). The Protocols is a report of minutes held at secrect meetings by Zionists who are strategizing taking over the world. On Protocol 16, 17, or 18 it explains about their intenions of changing human History. If you have power to control literature, you control how people think.

When you were doing your in depth Google research into the Protocols, did you see were they were proven to be fraudulent over a 100 years ago? Did you see were these supposed meeting notes conveniently match up with fictional books written many years before the putative meeting took place? Did you see were the Protocols have been re-written several times, exchanging the "Jewish conspiracy" for a "Bolshevik conspiracy"? Or this "document" and its influence on Nazi Germany? Or is this all part of the vast conspiracy to keep the truth from getting out?

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Feel free to google search The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (I recommend everyone to read the whole document). The Protocols is a report of minutes held at secrect meetings by Zionists who are strategizing taking over the world. On Protocol 16, 17, or 18 it explains about their intenions of changing human History. If you have power to control literature, you control how people think.

I would, but you need a black helicopter to get there.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Feel free to google search The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (I recommend everyone to read the whole document). The Protocols is a report of minutes held at secrect meetings by Zionists who are strategizing taking over the world. On Protocol 16, 17, or 18 it explains about their intenions of changing human History. If you have power to control literature, you control how people think.

You seriously went there? The Russian propaganda piece?

Wow.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Aiki Lee]

Seeing as war is as old as humanity itself it could stand to reason that martial arts in some form or another would be beyond recorded history as well.

 

[Kenlee25]

From what I've taken from numerous history courses, the General belief is that mankind began in Africa. From a scientific standpoint it could stand to reason that that is where evolution first created the bipedal animal that is man. From a religious standpoint ( say Christianity ) you could say that is where the Garden of Eden was located.

Either way, the general belief is that mankind began in Africa. The first combat styles would be adapted from hunting to fit human beings of course, since banding together in armies for war is not a natural occurrence in nature. With that thought, you could stand to think that the first martial style was of African hunting styles that were refined into martial techniques for using the weapons on a thinking fighting human being. Open handed fighting ( in the world of our ancestors ) was an after thought, so that would have to be developed later.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe the first non weapon martial art ever recorded was Pankration in Greece. Seeing as Greece is closer to Africa than Asia, it makes since. Pankration includes wrestling techniques, some joint locks and snaps, take downs, and punching and kicking techniques. It essentially has the basics of all other arts within it, which for such an ancient style was incredible. It was a fully open hand martial art, as the spartans would use it when robbed of their weapon or forced onto the ground during warfare. It soon however diffused into more of a sport to be used at the Olympics.

Now bare with me. It can be assumed IF all of this is correct, that the idea of pankration made it's way into Asia where it was even further refined into kung fu and even more techniques and stances were added, as well as training methods. The move to Japan brought the arts with them to create more Japanese styles.

Now i'm not saying this is the exact method of martial art transportation and history, but it is plausible and makes since. After all, pankration's kicks ( round kicks to low middle and high ), judo throws ( take the sacrifice throw for example ), greco roman wrestling and gloved boxing matches make up a lot of what martial arts are today. It was certainly the first recorded use of an art in civilian competition. It can be easily inferred how Asian warriors would turn the VERY bare bones simple art ( it was simple and too the point ) and make it their own by mimicking animals or finding new ways to strike or focusing on speed instead of power ( since they were naturally smaller people ).

 

[Blindside]

Wrestling has been documented in Mesopotamia (2900 BC) and Egypt (2300 BC) and neither are evidence of any sort of "sole source" of the martial arts. Quite frankly the martial arts really aren't so complicated that there can't have been multiple sources.