"Let those who Ride ~ Decide" Debate

[bydand]

Oh boy, this could get interesting fast! Up front I'd like to say that I don't roll an inch without a helmet! Do I think you should? Of course I do, am I willing to MAKE you were one? NO. By the same token, I think all of us who ride should sign an organ doner card when we get the motorcycle endorsment added to our drivers license. All joking aside, it IS a dangerous sport and I have.

Before anyone flames me for that, let me clear something up first. I am NOT a newbie when it comes to riding, I have been riding from the summer I was 5 years old (1968 for those keeping track) and have ridden every style of bike you can think of. The incident told by the lawyer about the guy hitting a car at 25 MPH and buying the farm in Battle Creek, MI hit kind of close to home. I also hit a car head-on when I was doing 30 MPH and the car was traveling about 25 MPH. I also flew over the car. I landed face first on the pavement and skidded under a parked car and was brought to an abrupt stop by having my helmeted head wedge between the car frame and the pavement. When I unstuck my head, crawled out from under the car, and removed my helmet; I was shocked to see several LARGE chunks missing from the helmet and couldn't see through the scared up faceshield. I had blue paint from the car on my socks for God's sake, but, walked away with a sore knee, and a scrape on one hand. Will I ride without? NO WAY!! Will you? That is your decision, not mine to make.

 

[Don Roley]

Spending OUR tax dollars on someone elses medical burden, weather it be uninsured illegals or helmetless motorcyclists are the same issue, not two seperate ones.

Yes and no. Just because we must spend money on illegal aliens to treat them does not mean that police should turn a blind eye as people ride down the street without a helmet. It seems that whenever we try to tackle one small problem, people bring out other issues and say that we can't tackle the first one without dealing with the second.

I personally think that we should not be paying out money for either case. The exception would be for children. Adults how make choices should be the ones who pay for the resluts of their actions. If we see a child without a helmet or without a seat belt, we pull them over and get the parent for child endangerment.

But if an adult chooses to ride without a helmet and gets in an accident, or an adult does anything that needs medical care and does not have insurance, we merely wait for them to expire and move the body off of the road. I am sure all the people who scream about how such people can't afford health care and the like can contribute to charities that can step in and pay for thier health fees. But I kind of guess that unless these charities want to go bankrupt fast they will not agree to pay out unless people take a bit of responsibility for their actions and wear helmets.

It is not an opinion that makes me many friends at parties.

 

[Ping898]

Medical cost burdens aside, personally I think all motorcyclists should wear helmets just from the stand point of the person who drives a car, if I ever hit one of them I don't want to have their death weighing on my concious which it would even if the accident wasn't my fault and at least wearing a helmet can increase the survival chances of a rider who gets hit.

I just remember volunteering at a hospital once (in a no helmet state) and being told by a nurse "there is a reason we just call all motorcycle riders organ donors"

 

[tradrockrat]

Medical cost burdens aside, personally I think all motorcyclists should wear helmets just from the stand point of the person who drives a car, if I ever hit one of them I don't want to have their death weighing on my concious which it would even if the accident wasn't my fault and at least wearing a helmet can increase the survival chances of a rider who gets hit.

I just remember volunteering at a hospital once (in a no helmet state) and being told by a nurse "there is a reason we just call all motorcycle riders organ donors"

This is actually one of the contentious points in this debate - there is actually evidence to support both sides propositions on the effectiveness of helmets. For every story you find of a permanantly disabled rider due to no helmet, I can find one where the helmet is actually what killed / disabled the rider.

What's the answer? The only logical one is to suck it up and trust the rider to decide.

As for the whole "I was in a hospital once" thing (not picking on you Ping, but I hear this EVERY time this conversation comes up) Nurses also hate guns, knives, high risk sports, kickboxing, sparring, rock climbing, etc.

Don't take it as gospel just because it comes from a nurse. I know nurses who ride - they don't use the term.

 

[Makalakumu]

This is actually one of the contentious points in this debate - there is actually evidence to support both sides propositions on the effectiveness of helmets. For every story you find of a permanantly disabled rider due to no helmet, I can find one where the helmet is actually what killed / disabled the rider.

If you have data on this one to one relationship, I would love to see it...

 

[fireman00]

First off I'm glad that you're OK.

Second, as a volunteer firefighter/ 1st responder I've had the "pleasure" of making to over 100 motorcycle accidents here in NJ - a helmet state and I've come up with three opions on this isuse:
1.) We have seat belt laws to keep folks safe- why aren't helmets considered in the same manner?
1.) Folks who ride w/o a helmet, full set of leathers, and neck/ spine protection are to be considered organ donors.
2.) Folks who don't want to wear the gear mentioned above should not have access to emergency services personel; why should we leave our families, get woken up in the middle of the night with the pager going off for an MVA motorcycle vs XXXX?. We also get to miss out on holidays, birthdays, dinners, to have the opportinuity to deal with the the blood and guts as well as post-trauma?

I would ask that you ask Gary Busey what he thinks about helmet laws, he made a quick about face after he met Mr. Curb ..... "Before his crash on Dec. 4, 1988, Busey was known for his staunch opposition to helmet laws. He was traveling at a relatively slow speed on a street in Culver City, Calif., when he hit a patch of gravel and lost control of his motorcycle. He was thrown into a curb headfirst, luckily at the feet of a policeman who was scouting the area for a marathon race.

But his head injuries were nearly fatal, and Busey said that while on the operating table, he had a near-death experience that profoundly changed him.

"I died during surgery, and that's when I had a blessing," he said. "I was taken to the other side to the point of existence where the spiritual realm lives."

A year later, fully recovered, Busey announced that he had changed his views on helmets and helmet laws, stating during an interview on The Arsenio Hall Show, "Next time you're doing 45 mph, look at the curb, and think about slam-dancing with it once.""

Link to full article: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0630Actor0630.html

 

[tradrockrat]

If you have data on this one to one relationship, I would love to see it...

So would I, but for now we'll have to live in a world where nobody has the balls to do a study like that.

I guess we'll just have to search out individual stories and stats until then. I'll go with the experts on this one - see my previous post where the helmet manufacturer explained that his helmets can't be expected to actually work.

 

[bydand]

Nurses also hate guns, knives, high risk sports, kickboxing, sparring, rock climbing, etc.

Don't take it as gospel just because it comes from a nurse. I know nurses who ride - they don't use the term.

I have to disagree with this statement. My wife is an ER nurse and she, along with everybody she works with (both Nurses and Dr's.), are some of the most adventursome people I know. 1/2 the department ride motorcycles, most of them own/shoot guns, they all love white-water rafting/kayacking, my wife loves the MA's (as a practitioner, not an observer), and she thinks rock climbing is a great time. The ones who do ride a motorcycle USUALLY wear a helmet, but not 100% of the time. They ALL refer to anybody who is NOT wearing one as "organ donors." Last week we went to dinner with a couple of the RN's she works with and they rode their bikes to meet us at the resturant. They didn't wear their helmets that night and laughingly said "We decided to go organ donor style tonight and leave the brain buckets at home."

 

[Elayna]

Ok, heres the way I see it.

I dont see it in the terms of money. But in life.
Ok, so yea, they should have the right to decide if they want to wear a helment of not. Based soley on free will, a good given right by anyone and everyone.
But....let me put this too you.

Im riding in my car with my son, who in this analogy is 5. Sees a guy riding on a really cool tricked out "crotch rocket" and he isnt wearing a helmet.
What is my son going to want to do, wear a helmet? I think not, because its not cool. And I hate to say this, nowa days, kids that age do care about whats cool and what isnt. What about when hes 16? 17? and so on? Yea I hope to teach him better, but kids dont always listen.
Helmet hair you know.
So the way I see it is, if wearing a helmet becomes a cool thing, then maybe it will save my sons life. Instead of him one day thinking its "cool" not to wear one and never having a face again, or worse, being DEAD!!

You out there who dont think this is a relevant argument, dont know the power of peer pressure and being cool and looking the part. Its huge, its out there and thats what causing school shootings.
And I as a mom, dont think you have the right to put that pressure on our kids.
If we all ban together and make saftey "cool" then, we wouldnt have an issue now would we. Then maybe our kids would be safer. Just like wearing seatbelts, saying "NO" to drugs and so on.
Wearing a helmet is just as important as locking up your gun. Or not taking drugs. It impacts someone somewhere....Just think about that.
Sure, you should have the right to decide. I dont think the government should make you do anything. But if you are grown up enough to ride one, then be grown up enough to look far ahead enough to see what could happen and take the steps to help reduce the risks.

Anyways...the 2cents of a big mamma bear.

 

[tradrockrat]

First off I'm glad that you're OK.

Second, as a volunteer firefighter/ 1st responder I've had the "pleasure" of making to over 100 motorcycle accidents here in NJ - a helmet state and I've come up with three opions on this isuse:
1.) We have seat belt laws to keep folks safe- why aren't helmets considered in the same manner?

Good question. I'm against seat belt laws too.

1.) Folks who ride w/o a helmet, full set of leathers, and neck/ spine protection are to be considered organ donors.

Is this a pronouncement from on high? Should I call you lord now? You get to label me? This is the kind of crap that pisses me off - don't suppose to consider me anything - you don't know me. But with blanket ******** comments like that ... ah hell, forget it

2.) Folks who don't want to wear the gear mentioned above should not have access to emergency services personel; why should we leave our families, get woken up in the middle of the night with the pager going off for an MVA motorcycle vs XXXX?. We also get to miss out on holidays, birthdays, dinners, to have the opportinuity to deal with the the blood and guts as well as post-trauma?

Gee, I don't know - because we pay TAXES for the damn service?!? You exist precisely to provide these serevices. Don't want the late night call? Change jobs. Geez - that's like me asking why I should have to grade papers if the student didn't study for the test, or why my wife should have to arrest criminals instead of shooting them if she catches them in the act.

I would ask that you ask Gary Busey what he thinks about helmet laws, he made a quick about face after he met Mr. Curb ..... "Before his crash on Dec. 4, 1988, Busey was known for his staunch opposition to helmet laws. He was traveling at a relatively slow speed on a street in Culver City, Calif., when he hit a patch of gravel and lost control of his motorcycle. He was thrown into a curb headfirst, luckily at the feet of a policeman who was scouting the area for a marathon race.

But his head injuries were nearly fatal, and Busey said that while on the operating table, he had a near-death experience that profoundly changed him.

"I died during surgery, and that's when I had a blessing," he said. "I was taken to the other side to the point of existence where the spiritual realm lives."

A year later, fully recovered, Busey announced that he had changed his views on helmets and helmet laws, stating during an interview on The Arsenio Hall Show, "Next time you're doing 45 mph, look at the curb, and think about slam-dancing with it once.""

Link to full article: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0630Actor0630.html

I rarely let B list actors think for me. Enough said.


It all comes down to choice. I ride with a helmet, others chose not to. I'm not advocating riding without a helmet. I'm advocating no laws making it compulsory.

 

[tradrockrat]

I have to disagree with this statement. My wife is an ER nurse and she, along with everybody she works with (both Nurses and Dr's.), are some of the most adventursome people I know. 1/2 the department ride motorcycles, most of them own/shoot guns, they all love white-water rafting/kayacking, my wife loves the MA's (as a practitioner, not an observer), and she thinks rock climbing is a great time. The ones who do ride a motorcycle USUALLY wear a helmet, but not 100% of the time. They ALL refer to anybody who is NOT wearing one as "organ donors." Last week we went to dinner with a couple of the RN's she works with and they rode their bikes to meet us at the resturant. They didn't wear their helmets that night and laughingly said "We decided to go organ donor style tonight and leave the brain buckets at home."

well I guess I shouldn't have edited my earlier post before submitting it. i was going to say except for those who actually do the above activities - they understand the reality. The RN's and the doctor I know and ride with never use the term as a disparaging comment, but rather as a knowing nod and wink to the common stereotype. I stand corrected.

 

[tradrockrat]

Upnorth - here's a few things worth reading

http://www.bikersrights.com/statistics/goldstein/goldstein.html

Here's the abstract from a more recent study from Australia concluding "there was no significant difference in the odds of cervical spinal cord injury among unhelmeted and helmeted motorcyclist acute survivors."


http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ourplace/Biker/facts.htm



my personal favorite: http://www.usff.com/hldl/report/3rdEditiona.html

 

[Shaolinwind]

I'm a big fan of "let those who ride decide" as well. I'm really glad for you and I always wear a helmet myself, but about half the time it's a non legal skid lid as opposed to my 3/4 face sheild.

I guess I should put 2 cents in on the Let those who ride decide thread. As I type with no small amount of pain I say.. The law must demand we wear a leather Jacket, Chaps, Gloves, Full face helmet, and boots. All must be approved protective gear.

Save the idiots (me) from themselves.

 

[tradrockrat]

this is really good - This came from the article I posted at this address:

www.usff.com/hldl/report/3rdEditiona.html

This is undoubtedly what happened to McAfee. A blow to the side of the helmet, mild as it may have been, was just enough to have broken his neck and damaged his spinal cord sufficiently to have left him helplessly crippled. It is interesting to note that the very same type of impact was survived by Gary Bussy, who now claims that helmets save lives. It is interesting to consider that had Bussy been wearing a helmet when his head hit the curb, the combination of chin strap and helmet may have left him crippled for life, or even dead, rather than just mildly (relative to fatally) injured -- with only questionable brain damage as the end result.

so again I say - I don't let others think for me.

 

[stone_dragone]

I feelt he same way about helmets as I do firearms...Educate; don't legislate.

I choose to wear one because of the style and speed of my bike. I think that it should be riders' choice. On the other hand, though, I do feel that there needs to be a mandatory safety course certification/recertification process. The army has instituted numerous rules regarding requirements for riding a motocycle on post (safety courses, required equipment, etc).

I think that a version of said requirements would be a good idea: i.e. mandatory safety course as part of license testing and mandatory recertification every 3-5 years.

my .02 in '06

 

[Makalakumu]

Upnorth - here's a few things worth reading

http://www.bikersrights.com/statistics/goldstein/goldstein.html

Here's the abstract from a more recent study from Australia concluding "there was no significant difference in the odds of cervical spinal cord injury among unhelmeted and helmeted motorcyclist acute survivors."


http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ourplace/Biker/facts.htm



my personal favorite: http://www.usff.com/hldl/report/3rdEditiona.html

Hey thanks, good finds. I wear a seat belt and a helmet when I ride because I still think its safer...but I've always heard rumors that some people considered taking those safety precautions to be just as dangerous. If this data exists, I wonder why taking these safety precautions is being pushed by the government? I wonder if they have the numbers to back up their recommendations? With seat belts, I've seen some of the governments data, but not with helmets.

As far as the whole nanny-state angle on this goes, I'm undecided. Idealistically, I want to let people make decisions for themselves, but realistically, I know that there are some pretty dumb people out there...and their stupidity is a drag on society...from smoking to seatbelts, and maybe even to helmets...it has a price and in some cases it is quite hefty.

 

[tradrockrat]

I understand exactly where you're coming from with that comment on the nanny state. It's a real thin line, isn't it?

I'm just a believer in in what stone_dragone called the "educate, don't legislate" view.

education goes a long way..

 

[Kacey]

Education does go a long way; however, too many people want a "quick fix", and thus laws are passed to legislate behavior, not educate those who demonstrate the behaviors. As I said previously, the people who avoid the education process are precisely the ones who need it, and the least likely to engage in it. Unfortunately, as with driver's insurance, there are ways around proving one has met the prerequisites for licensure - and again, the people who find ways around education requirements are those who need to meet them the most. Proper education will require a significant change in the perceptions of the voting public, which appears to believe that passing a law (regardless of past, current, or future enforcement) will fix problems.

 

[Cryozombie]

And I as a mom, dont think you have the right to put that pressure on our kids.

Oh man...

I dont think you have the right to make ME responsible for YOUR parenting or YOUR childs decisions.

At all.

Kids get hurt, even killed playing football. They play football because its "cool" to play football. So we should make people stop playing football, so football wont be cool so kids wont get injured or killed playing football.

Try that argument with the NFL.

 

[Cryozombie]

Yes and no. Just because we must spend money on illegal aliens to treat them does not mean that police should turn a blind eye as people ride down the street without a helmet.

Don, I get where you are coming from, however... we are talking about making helmets manditory, as opposed to enforcing existing helmet laws. If someone is riding without one in a State like MD or NY, yeah, Id expect them to get ticketed. But in say IL, or PA, not so much, because thats left up to choice there... and If a cop ticketed me for not wearing a helmet in one of those states, Id think he needed to brush up on his understanding of the state law.